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Municipal Bonds

Posted on 2/24/10 at 10:58 am
Posted by MemphisTiger
& LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2006
3380 posts
Posted on 2/24/10 at 10:58 am
Educate me!

My boss just came in and asked me to investigate what munis he's invested in and identify any hazardous bonds. He also wants me to find bonds that look good for the future.

Where do I start? Go.
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
133640 posts
Posted on 2/24/10 at 11:00 am to
What kind of job do you have where your boss can delegate this type of task to an employee?
Posted by Skin
Member since Jun 2007
6386 posts
Posted on 2/24/10 at 11:04 am to
search the ratings thru Moody's, Standard & Poor's, Fitch, Dominion Bond Rating Service, & AM Best.

that's a good start.
Posted by MemphisTiger
& LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2006
3380 posts
Posted on 2/24/10 at 11:04 am to
I do not have a job description. My boss (the majority owner) and the other owners hired me for special projects. Well this is really special because I know diddly squat about munis. My few finance classes at the undergrad level didn't prepare me for this.

I just signed up on Bond Buyer and have access to financial databases, but I need some direction from the Money Talk board.
Posted by USNTiger84
Prairieville
Member since Mar 2008
512 posts
Posted on 2/24/10 at 11:04 am to
Posted by ocelot4ark
Dallas, TX
Member since Oct 2009
12536 posts
Posted on 2/24/10 at 12:43 pm to
With a lot of muni bonds their rating is based on nothing more than their insurance. If they're insured by a well-regarding company, they're AAA. The potential risk comes from the bond insurer being downgraded. If that happens, the muni itself is liable to be downgraded if it's a smaller municipality with non-readily available financials.

I would try to get my hands on the prospectus, if available, or something else that actually shows their statements. That would make me feel more confident in a high investment grade rating if I knew it was supported by the numbers, not just the insurance.
Posted by tirebiter
7K R&G chile land aka SF
Member since Oct 2006
10717 posts
Posted on 2/24/10 at 1:59 pm to
quote:

With a lot of muni bonds their rating is based on nothing more than their insurance. If they're insured by a well-regarding company, they're AAA. The potential risk comes from the bond insurer being downgraded. If that happens, the muni itself is liable to be downgraded if it's a smaller municipality with non-readily available financials.


I believe insurance support actually improving/backstopping muni ratings died about 18-months ago. Seriously, Vanguard killed their insured muni funds as the insurance isn't worth squat.
Posted by ocelot4ark
Dallas, TX
Member since Oct 2009
12536 posts
Posted on 2/24/10 at 2:03 pm to
quote:

I believe insurance support actually improving/backstopping muni ratings died about 18-months ago. Seriously, Vanguard killed their insured muni funds as the insurance isn't worth squat.


You could be right. I haven't looked at muni's in probably 2 years. But I do wonder how smaller municipalities are rated at this point? It was my understanding that often times, the rating agencies wouldn't even look at their finances if they were insured unless they were substantial offerings. Could be wrong, of course.
Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 2/24/10 at 4:01 pm to
quote:

Where do I start? Go.



Learn 8 big words that are mildly relevant to Munis. Create a speech.
Walk into his office.
Use each word at least twice.
He'll be impressed.

Seriously, if he's not getting a professional to do this

1) he doesn't know dick about finance
2) he doesn't deserve any better info than that
Posted by JoeBobRuby
Member since Sep 2005
5943 posts
Posted on 2/25/10 at 10:21 am to
quote:

Seriously, if he's not getting a professional to do this

1) he doesn't know dick about finance
2) he doesn't deserve any better info than that


that's what I was thinking
Posted by MemphisTiger
& LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2006
3380 posts
Posted on 2/25/10 at 12:16 pm to
quote:

Seriously, if he's not getting a professional to do this

1) he doesn't know dick about finance
2) he doesn't deserve any better info than that


He is worth millions and knows a lot about the market and finance in general. I think this is a test to see what my knowledge is and to see what he will use me for in the future.
Posted by topstunter
Madisonville
Member since Dec 2009
32 posts
Posted on 3/6/10 at 12:43 am to
(no message)
This post was edited on 11/27/11 at 10:28 pm
Posted by Fat Bastard
2024 NFL pick'em champion
Member since Mar 2009
89280 posts
Posted on 3/6/10 at 4:46 am to
stick with general obligation munis.
Posted by amsterdam
In His Word
Member since Jul 2008
1036 posts
Posted on 3/7/10 at 8:56 pm to
quote:

stick with general obligation munis.


Couldnt agree more
Posted by arrakis
Member since Nov 2008
21168 posts
Posted on 3/8/10 at 8:24 am to
quote:

I think this is a test to see what my knowledge is and to see what he will use me for in the future.



Based on this:
quote:

Well this is really special because I know diddly squat about munis. My few finance classes at the undergrad level didn't prepare me for this.

...doesn't look like you'll pass the test.
Posted by TheHiddenFlask
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
18384 posts
Posted on 3/8/10 at 10:54 am to
So how did it go?
Posted by Roach
River Ridge, LA
Member since Nov 2007
4258 posts
Posted on 3/8/10 at 3:44 pm to
I have invested in many muni's over the years. A few key points:
(1) Invest with in state muni's to get the best yield.
(2) Spread your money - if you are investing $1,000,000 buy 10 different muni's not just one.
(3) Make sure the maturity dates meet the investors time table.
(4) Buy muni's with a rating that your are comfortable with.
Posted by Greenspan
6 million posts
Member since Dec 2007
2194 posts
Posted on 3/8/10 at 11:49 pm to
quote:

1. Are they both federal and state tax exempt

Wrong, some municipal bonds are only exempt from state income taxes in the issuing state.
Posted by Tiger JJ
Member since Aug 2010
545 posts
Posted on 3/8/10 at 11:54 pm to
See if you can find some close-end bond funds trading at a discount (Nuveen is a good start).

Also, take a look at auction rate preferred securities. You can still buy them at maybe 90 cents on the dollar and they are, IMO, a true AAA piece of paper. It's near impossible for me to imagine you having a principal loss.
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