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Tariffs. What libertarian Economists don't grasp and more.

Posted on 3/25/25 at 11:07 pm
Posted by BCreed1
Alabama
Member since Jan 2024
5146 posts
Posted on 3/25/25 at 11:07 pm
This is going to be long.

Economists are abandoning some of their most basic analytic principles. In particular, Libertarian Economists often quoted here. Some of which praise, with enthusiasm, carbon taxes. Taxing carbon would make many things more expensive for consumers, but economists embrace it as an elegant way to reduce emissions.

Their first mistake is to consider only the costs of tariffs, and not the benefits. The basic premise is that domestic production has value beyond what market prices reflect and they ignore it.

They believe that manufacturing does not matter in the scheme of things. As the fallout from globalization has illustrated, manufacturing does matter. It matters for national security, ensuring both the resilience of supply chains and the capacity of the defense-industrial base. It also matters for growth.

Manufacturing drives innovation. As the McKinsey Global Institute has noted, the manufacturing sector plays an outsize role in private research spending. When manufacturing heads offshore, entire supply chains and engineering know-how follow. The tight feedback loop between design and production, necessary to improvements in both, favors firms and workers positioned near the factory floor and near competitors, suppliers, and customers.

Production in the physical economy, whether manufacturing or agriculture or resource extraction, also has an outsize effect on economy-wide productivity growth. It anchors local economies in a way that personal services cannot. It preserves economic balance, so that trade is genuinely trade, instead of a lopsided exchange of cheap goods for financial assets.

One of the sources used over and over here is a report by the Tax Foundation in 2018. Another is from the University of Michigan economist Justin Wolfers. According to Wolfers, “Trump raised the tariff on washing machines by about 9%-pts and the price of laundry equipment rose by about 9%,” demonstrating that the tariff “was an impressively destructive policy.” Neither address the whole picture. They stop short of it.

When economist take a look at the whole picture, that changes drastically. Researchers at UCLA studying tariffs imposed on China in 2018 estimated that higher import prices were costing the U.S. economy $51 billion annually. But with a “general equilibrium” model that attempted to account for the economy’s response, that estimate fell by 85 percent and became statistically indistinguishable from zero. “We find substantial redistribution from buyers of foreign goods to U.S. producers and the government,” they concluded, “but a small net effect for the U.S. economy as a whole.”

Let's go back to the washers and dryers. Some posters on the PT used them as an example of the horror of tariffs. They used 2018 data from places that are not pro tariffs who happened to leave out data from 2019. Why? Maybe it's because in 2019, the higher prices completely vanish.

Now why would that happen? Go back to the very beginning of this thread. Read it again. Samsung and LG brought U.S.-based factories online after the tariffs took effect, expanding domestic supply. The same thing happened when the Reagan administration negotiated import quotas on Japanese automobiles. The built plants in the south and prices dropped.

Matt Yglesias (look him up) stated that tariff revenue simply disappears. “If a million people each pay $5 extra in tariffs to save one factory job, that’s $5 million per job,” and the Tax Foundation echoed that line of thought.

If 1 million consumers each pay a $5 tariff, $5 million has not been set on fire—it has moved from their pockets to the U.S. Treasury. The nation is not necessarily any richer or poorer. Some other tax could be reduced by $5 million. The $5 million could be rebated to consumers. It could be invested in some other activity—say, building a new bridge—that might have benefits greater than the cost.

As the cases of laundry machines and Japanese cars underscore, when firms have incentives to invest in the United States, American workers prove every bit as capable as foreigners of producing efficiently and driving costs down. The standard anti-tariff narrative ignores all of this.

Nobel laureate Paul Samuelson argued aggressively for free trade. His book written in 1948 is still used today. Even he agreed that tariffs do work however. In “Beggar-Thy-Neighbor Policies,” he listed the many ways that policies like “protective tariffs” could help “create a favorable balance of trade.”


Oren Cass, conservative economist, is in part the source of some of this. I think he stated it best:
quote:


Whether America should focus more on domestic or global prosperity, on the lowest possible prices or on long-term growth and industrial strength, are questions on which reasonable minds may differ. They are not, however, questions that economists can answer. In fact, they are precisely the sorts of questions best left to politicians and the voters who elect them.


Posted by Harry Boutte
Louisiana
Member since Oct 2024
1948 posts
Posted on 3/25/25 at 11:41 pm to
But aren't tariffs just a big government solution to the problem of American consumers choosing not to support American industry in the market?
Posted by stuntman
Florida
Member since Jan 2013
9799 posts
Posted on 3/25/25 at 11:41 pm to
Weird. You would think then that the Smoot/Hawley tariffs would have worked wonders for us instead of being what really kicked off the Great Depression.
Posted by TigersHuskers
Nebraska
Member since Oct 2014
12233 posts
Posted on 3/25/25 at 11:52 pm to
Nice cherry pick
Posted by BCreed1
Alabama
Member since Jan 2024
5146 posts
Posted on 3/25/25 at 11:54 pm to
quote:

You would think then that the Smoot/Hawley tariffs would have worked wonders for us instead of being what really kicked off the Great Depression.


Smoot/Hawley didn't start the great depression. The Great Depression was caused by a combination of factors, including the stock market crash of 1929, bank failures, and government policies.

Banking panics in 1930 and 1931 caused many banks to fail, which decreased the money available for loans.

Fearful depositors withdrew their money in cash, which further damaged the banking system.

The Federal Reserve's monetary policies contributed to the Depression.

An economic downturn in Germany and financial difficulties in France and Great Britain contributed to the global financial crisis.

To blame Smoot/Hawley as the sole reason for it is not based in facts.

A severe global economic downturn beginning in 1929, was triggered by the stock market crash of 1929, but its roots lay in a complex mix of factors including overproduction, unsustainable credit practices, and weak international economic policies. All of which was prior to SmootHawley.


Posted by stuntman
Florida
Member since Jan 2013
9799 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:02 am to
What? It's a clear example that tariffs suck. How in the hell does making trade more expensive benefit society?

Read some Bastiat. "The Seen vs. The Unseen".
Posted by stuntman
Florida
Member since Jan 2013
9799 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:03 am to
Yes, it kicked off what made the depression "Great". Unemployment didn't skyrocket until after Smoot/Hawley was passed.

The last thing you should want is to make things more expensive when an economic downturn happens.
Posted by stuntman
Florida
Member since Jan 2013
9799 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:06 am to
quote:

To blame Smoot/Hawley as the sole reason for it is not based in facts.


I'm not blaming it all on Smoot/Hawley. I'm saying it helped make things much worse.

So, why would you want higher prices when the economy was getting hit?

Now, I get the "national security" angle that people have started to say constantly, but if we're talking about what benefits society and our purchasing power, then arbitrarily raising the costs of doing business makes no sense at all.
Posted by BCreed1
Alabama
Member since Jan 2024
5146 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:07 am to
quote:

What? It's a clear example that tariffs suck. How in the hell does making trade more expensive benefit society?


It's clearly written in the OP.

Manufacturing drives innovation. As the McKinsey Global Institute has noted, the manufacturing sector plays an outsize role in private research spending. When manufacturing heads offshore, entire supply chains and engineering know-how follow. The tight feedback loop between design and production, necessary to improvements in both, favors firms and workers positioned near the factory floor and near competitors, suppliers, and customers.

Production in the physical economy, whether manufacturing or agriculture or resource extraction, also has an outsize effect on economy-wide productivity growth. It anchors local economies in a way that personal services cannot. It preserves economic balance, so that trade is genuinely trade, instead of a lopsided exchange of cheap goods for financial assets.
Posted by stuntman
Florida
Member since Jan 2013
9799 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:08 am to
It isn't. This is why I brought up Smoot/Hawley and the Great Depression. We should have never had those problems if what you said about tariffs is true.
Posted by BCreed1
Alabama
Member since Jan 2024
5146 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:11 am to
quote:

Yes, it kicked off what made the depression "Great".


No it didn't. If that's the case, we would have been in a great depression from our very founding because we have always used tariffs.

quote:

The last thing you should want is to make things more expensive when an economic downturn happens.


The totally ignores having manufacturing and more here during down turns. Are you suggesting that the only down turn we had in our history was the great depression?

And example here is Reagan. He put in quotas on Japan and companies moved here. That resulted in the prices of cars to drop and then dropped even more when the quotas were removed.

Posted by Taxing Authority
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
60597 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:11 am to
quote:

Read some Bastiat. "The Seen vs. The Unseen".
I leaned in the other thread he was a Leftist Libtard.
Posted by Taxing Authority
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
60597 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:13 am to
quote:

Manufacturing drives innovation.
Backwards. If it was so, we cold be rich by making finding innovative ways to make buggy whips and wagon wheels. I see why you guys are struggling so hard with this.
This post was edited on 3/26/25 at 12:13 am
Posted by stuntman
Florida
Member since Jan 2013
9799 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:13 am to
quote:

No it didn't. If that's the case, we would have been in a great depression from our very founding because we have always used tariffs.


No, it's the level of tariffs that matter. Kind of like if you get an infection. A small amount isn't going to hurt you much at all. But if there's a lot, bad things can happen.

What were the typical tariff rates before income taxes came along?
Posted by stuntman
Florida
Member since Jan 2013
9799 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:14 am to
Bastiat?!!
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:17 am to
Bastiat. Sowell. Friedman.

All commies apparently, and the drivers for this melt thread.
Posted by stuntman
Florida
Member since Jan 2013
9799 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:18 am to
Good lord.

Posted by BCreed1
Alabama
Member since Jan 2024
5146 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:19 am to
quote:

So, why would you want higher prices when the economy was getting hit?



To consider only the costs of tariffs, and not the benefits is a mistake. The basic premise is that domestic production has value beyond what market prices reflect.

quote:

Now, I get the "national security" angle that people have started to say constantly, but if we're talking about what benefits society and our purchasing power, then arbitrarily raising the costs of doing business makes no sense at all.


Costs aren't raised when they move money and jobs here to avoid the tariffs. The whole point of tariffs.

In our current environment, telling a company that they will pay a tariff or they can build here to avoid it is still doing business with other nations and companies. Couple that with lowering taxes on businesses.... products actually get cheaper.


Posted by Taxing Authority
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
60597 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:23 am to
quote:

Bastiat?!!
Yep. Often used by MSNBC for talking points according to some. I wish I were joking.
Posted by stuntman
Florida
Member since Jan 2013
9799 posts
Posted on 3/26/25 at 12:23 am to
I am considering the benefits. Just like lobbyists, the special interests benefit and the costs are offloaded on the rest of us. Again, the "seen vs the unseen".

Why aren't those businesses here already? They are going to charge more than they otherwise would have had the tariffs not been put in place.

You're only doing first level thinking, bud.
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