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Started By
Message
Do Biden’s pardons extend to civilians being tried under the UCMJ?
Posted on 12/26/24 at 8:44 pm
Posted on 12/26/24 at 8:44 pm
I’m not sure one way of the other.
The subject was brought up at a holiday get together.
So, when looking for info about it, I stumbled across this while info on civilian prosecutions under the UCMJ.
Is it reciprocal, that is, can those pardoned by Biden be tried under the UCMJ?
The Supreme Court says no tribunal’s.
However, a tribunal is not a court martial (Special or General in this potential case).
Thoughts from the lawyerly types?
The subject was brought up at a holiday get together.
So, when looking for info about it, I stumbled across this while info on civilian prosecutions under the UCMJ.
quote:
Another critical aspect of the UCMJ’s reach over civilians lies in its grasp over online conduct. With the digital age blending personal and professional boundaries, your online activities might come under scrutiny, especially if they impact military operations or pose a threat to national security.
For civilian contractors, the implications include the requirement to adhere to military standards and protocols. Given that the UCMJ embodies a stringent code of conduct, a breach could lead to termination of contracts and, in severe cases, criminal charges.
Noteworthy is the possibility of double jeopardy. Civilians tried under the UCMJ may face prosecution in civilian courts for the same offense.
Is it reciprocal, that is, can those pardoned by Biden be tried under the UCMJ?
The Supreme Court says no tribunal’s.
However, a tribunal is not a court martial (Special or General in this potential case).
Thoughts from the lawyerly types?
1
Posted on 12/26/24 at 10:00 pm to jimmy the leg
Civilians are not subject to the UCMJ. Case closed.
Posted on 12/26/24 at 10:25 pm to RFK
quote:
Civilians are not subject to the UCMJ. Case closed.
Ummmmmm ... you sure about that?
Posted on 12/27/24 at 7:12 am to scrooster
Per Justice Kavanaugh they can be. It was brought up during his confirmation hearings.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 10:15 am to Night Vision
quote:
Per Justice Kavanaugh they can be. It was brought up during his confirmation hearings.
Exactly. It's always been that way. You commit a crime against our military or while on our base, if you are an American citizen you can be tried under UCMJ if the Provost so deems.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 10:20 am to RFK
quote:
Civilians are not subject to the UCMJ.
This is incorrect.
quote:
Case closed.
Not really.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 11:03 am to jimmy the leg
quote:
Civilians are not subject to the UCMJ.
quote:Care to expound on this, o wise one? How exactly is a civilian, with no ties to the military, subject to be arrested and tried for a violation of the UCMJ?
This is incorrect.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 11:11 am to RFK
quote:
Civilians are not subject to the UCMJ.
quote:
This is incorrect.
quote:
Care to expound on this, o wise one? How exactly is a civilian, with no ties to the military, subject to be arrested and tried for a violation of the UCMJ?
Way to pivot.
You obviously looked it up.
Good job…I guess.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 11:29 am to jimmy the leg
Ok I’ll bite. What civilians, in any case, are subject to the code?
Posted on 12/27/24 at 11:37 am to RFK
During martial law they can.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 12:20 pm to iwasthere
quote:Sounds good in theory but is there precedent for this? Trying civilians under the UCMJ would violate their due process and right to a jury trial.
During martial law they can.
While martial law might allow soldiers to enforce civilian laws (which is generally prohibited under the Posses Comitatus Act), I doubt it would allow lawmakers to suspend an American citizen’s constitutional rights.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 12:25 pm to RFK
quote:
Ok I’ll bite. What civilians, in any case, are subject to the code?
Scope out page 2 for starters
Posted on 12/27/24 at 12:36 pm to jimmy the leg
Please see my above post. The SECDEF can’t unilaterally decide the suspend constitutional protections of civilians.
This memo states that DOD contractors, serving in forward areas, “may” be subject to the UCMJ and commanders should act like they are in order to pass evidence along to the DOJ. That’s the intent of this policy. If you can provide some precedent where a U.S. citizen has been tried under the UCMJ I’d like to consider it.
But to answer the original question of this thread, no one Biden is pardoning would ever be tried by the UCMJ no matter what fringe articles have been floating around (see General Milley’s case).
Additionally, Biden intentionally left all military members on death row when he commuted other federal sentences.
This memo states that DOD contractors, serving in forward areas, “may” be subject to the UCMJ and commanders should act like they are in order to pass evidence along to the DOJ. That’s the intent of this policy. If you can provide some precedent where a U.S. citizen has been tried under the UCMJ I’d like to consider it.
But to answer the original question of this thread, no one Biden is pardoning would ever be tried by the UCMJ no matter what fringe articles have been floating around (see General Milley’s case).
Additionally, Biden intentionally left all military members on death row when he commuted other federal sentences.
Posted on 12/27/24 at 12:46 pm to RFK
quote:
Sounds good in theory but is there precedent for this? Trying civilians under the UCMJ would violate their due process and right to a jury trial. While martial law might allow soldiers to enforce civilian laws (which is generally prohibited under the Posses Comitatus Act), I doubt it would allow lawmakers to suspend an American citizen’s constitutional rights
You only have to read to see they can during martial law. You can post Acts all you want, it is allowed under martial law.
It is obvious you have no clue what martial law is and everything allowed under it. Stop guessing and read it.
Just to add for precedent. The conspirators of Lincoln’s assassination were tried by military court.
This post was edited on 12/27/24 at 12:52 pm
Posted on 12/27/24 at 1:01 pm to RFK
quote:
This memo states that DOD contractors, serving in forward areas, “may” be subject to the UCMJ
I noted this.
It is more expansive than you imply though, as noted in my op.
quote:
If you can provide some precedent where a U.S. citizen has been tried under the UCMJ
I did NOT note this, as I never claimed it to have occurred.
Lastly, I would also like to note that if the court system is deemed to be inoperable (for whatever reason), that the UCMJ can then be applied to civilians. What that would look like…who knows?
I don’t expect that to happen fwiw. Just noting that there is another plausible (however unlikely) course.
quote:
no one Biden is pardoning would ever be tried by the UCMJ
Fair enough.
Now I have your opinion.
Thanks
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