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re: I'll ask this on this board: LOTR, Saruman
Posted on 9/21/23 at 11:58 am to Scoob
Posted on 9/21/23 at 11:58 am to Scoob
quote:
Neither Sauron nor Gandalf actually die, in the same sense as mortal Men.
I know that
When you're talking to someone that doesn't know lore it's just kind of easier to use a death/reincarnation explanation. Just like when you said Sauron faced a similar "death" in the Silmarillion.. quote:
That's an interpretation of the movies; in the books it is CLEAR that Gandalf is sent back by the Valar, not Eru Himself.
Huh? The word Eru isn't even mention in FOTR and TT books, much less the movies. When was it stated that Eru was who did it in the movies and clear that the Valar did it in the books?
quote:
So that establishes Sauron would return to HIS master, who presumably could restore his body/hroa. But probably wouldn't be nice about things in the process.
quote:
So that establishes Sauron would return to HIS master, who presumably could restore his body/hroa. But probably wouldn't be nice about things in the process.
At what point in time are we talking about here?
quote:
The point of this all is that Sauron had the power to take shape again. It would take time, but he had done it twice.
That does not prove that point at all. It's laid out pretty plainly in ROTK.
"If it [the Ring] is destroyed, then he will fall, and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed."
—The Return of the King, "The Last Debate"
I mean that's pretty plain.
quote:
As that all applies to Saruman: he is the same type of entity as Sauron, presumably lesser in power (at least while on Middle Earth). He presumably could take shape again as Sauron did.
Since Sauron can in fact not take shape, that kind of makes null this weird fan theory.
quote:
It's not hard to extrapolate that Men fell under the designs of Saruman, when you look at it.
Seeing that the book was released almost 70 years ago and the movies 20 years ago and it's just now that one guy on YouTube came up with this theory that Saruman wins by having to use some mental gymnastics to get someone to try and reason on it or infer that is what happened.
1
Posted on 9/23/23 at 3:19 am to iwyLSUiwy
quote:Been busy with life stuff, probably won't be posting much more for awhile.quote:
It's not hard to extrapolate that Men fell under the designs of Saruman, when you look at it.
Seeing that the book was released almost 70 years ago and the movies 20 years ago and it's just now that one guy on YouTube came up with this theory that Saruman wins by having to use some mental gymnastics to get someone to try and reason on it or infer that is what happened.
For what it's worth, I never considered that Saruman would play any further part. The books do wrap it up nicely...
But as a Tolkien fan, I found this an intriguing concept. And as fun as the movies were, I consider the books canon, not the movies. I know many younger folk take the opposite approach, as the movies were excellent, and that was their introduction. Not so for me.
There's a couple things to consider before totally dismissing this theory out of hand:
Tolkien did start a sequel, The New Shadow. Didn't get very far before abandoning it. But taking what we do know, Morgoth is out of the picture, and Sauron (and his Nazgul) are too. His Middle Earth is running low on threats of the magical nature, as of the Fourth Age; a rogue Istari would seem to be one of the few viable ones left.
And for what it's worth, this all was supposedly a lost history of OUR Earth. The Red Book is supposed to be a real artifact, recounting eras of the world (presumably pre-flood). The fact that the history of Western Civilization seems tied to advancements in warfare, industry, and political intrigue- that DOES correlate to a "Sarumanesque" influence. We certainly didn't stay true to the ideals that the reunited kingdom presented at the end of LOTR. Especially during the time Tolkien lived, Europe was more Saruman's, than Gandalf or Radagast.
It's all just an exercise in thinking inspection. It's meant to be enjoyed for civil discussions, not angry retorts. Thanks, and I'm out for now
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