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re: Tommy John - Not If, but When?

Posted on 5/3/23 at 6:40 pm to
Posted by deathvalleytiger10
Member since Sep 2009
7653 posts
Posted on 5/3/23 at 6:40 pm to
quote:

There is no research that shows meeting certain strength metrics and still playing often leads to higher risk


There never will be because it can’t be measured. Overuse injuries are cumulative over time. Nobody is going to perform a study starting in youth baseball through high school or college on athletes that combines their strength over time with the number of pitches thrown in practice, games along with throws in the field. Impossible to do.

quote:

But there is lots of research that shows meeting the metrics decreases the risk big time


Please link this research. I would like to see it. And again, I believe strength is a factor, just not THE major factor.

quote:

Simple, disregard for the data. If it tells you…hey you have fatigue, you are at risk or hey you have a mobility issue that puts you at higher risk but you go out and throw anyways….nothing you can do about it lol.


LOL. You think any college pitcher or coach is going to say “Hey, the app says you shouldn’t pitch today. I know you are our Friday night SEC starter, but it’s time to sit.” Yeah, that’s not practical.

The American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons classifies UCL injuries as “overuse injuries.” This article with some of the best in the world at treating UCL injuries provides much more information. AAOS site
Posted by lsu777
Lake Charles
Member since Jan 2004
31779 posts
Posted on 5/3/23 at 8:54 pm to
quote:

lol. LOL. You think any college pitcher or coach is going to say “Hey, the app says you shouldn’t pitch today. I know you are our Friday night SEC starter, but it’s time to sit.” Yeah, that’s not practical.


Well there ya go lol

I’ll link you the data tomorrow. Have to find it. Much of it is in-house studies by atp and it’s all over the place
Posted by lsu777
Lake Charles
Member since Jan 2004
31779 posts
Posted on 5/4/23 at 12:02 pm to
quote:

The American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons classifies UCL injuries as “overuse injuries.” This article with some of the best in the world at treating UCL injuries provides much more information




just understand that fixing UCL tears is not the same as understanding how to prevent them



here is some links to read. much of this info comes from in house studies

hoe the 90mph formula helps prevent ucl tears

so the above link goes into it but here is a overview

-the UCL ligament can only handle 30-40NM of valgus stress

-a fast ball puts the most stress on the elbow, more than a curveball, change, splitter, slider etc LINK

- the fastball causing the most stress is based on velocity only. once velocity is equated the curveball then slider causes the most, but overall fastball causes much more stress on the elbow. there is quite a bit of debate in the community right now if the supination of the forearm during a cruve/slider is distributing the load differently onto the elbow that we dont understand right now. again no definite answer. Phil Rosengren actually lays out the case they should throw curves LINK

- what we do know, pitching off a mound puts roughly 50-120nm of valgus stress on the elbow at the ucl....

quote:

Looking at the current research on valgus stress levels that the ulnar collateral ligament is up to 3 times weaker than the amount of force is exerted on a throw with a baseball.


so if the ucl can only 30-40nm how do we not tear it immediately when throwing off a mound?

-simple the muscles surrounding the elbow and those that provide stability and deceleration need to be really strong. what are those muscles


forearm- we know grip strength is huge and loss of grip strength is big indicator that UCL injury could happen if you throw with intent knowing that you have had a loss of grip strength from baseline. you can find the research here LINK the links to the studies are in the article.


lat strength- we know that the lats are the primary deceleration muscle used during the pitch. How do we test this and mobility required to throw....we test chin up strength, chest to bar. direct from ATP in house study on 1000 athletes
quote:

-If you can do a 1.5+x bw reverse lunge, 2+x deadlift, and 13+ bw chin ups you increase your likelihood of not having UCL surgery by 480%
?

quote:

Correlation to decrease risk of injury (in order):
1) chin-up
2) reverse lunge
3) deadlift



reverse lunge-....to quote Dr Heenan
quote:

If you ahve elbow pain, the answer isnt advil and icing, its fixing your reverse lunge
Fix the lunge — you fix the pelvis
Fix the pelvis — you fix the lumbar spine
Fix the lumbar spine — you fix the thoracic spine
Fix the thoracic spine — you fix the ribs
Fix the ribs — you fix the scap
Fix the thoracic spine and ribs — you fix the cervical spine
Fix the cervical spine and ribs — you fix the glenohumeral joint
Fix the glenohumeral joint — you fix the elbow


why does this work, lets look at kinimatic chain? because most elbow issues are derived from scap stability issues. scap stability issues are usually trunk issues. most trunk issues are pelvis issues and most pelvis issues derive from lack of stability in the lunge position.

from heenan, based on a 1000 person in house study at ATP--
quote:

-If you can do a 1.5x bw reverse lunge, you increase your likelihood of not having UCL surgery by 98.3%

LINK

deadlift- the why....
quote:

t’s a multipurpose metric to test force production, control of the spine, and grip strength (which has many neurological benefits for everyday people and some unique to throwers) for limiting factors that can decrease ball velo and potentially increase risk of injury. -
The deadlift is self-limiting in many ways and tests whole spine/pelvis control which has implications from basically every joint in the boys. It’s a fantastic catch all.
-
Utilized properly, the deadlift is arguably the most important movement we have in our gross movement database. How you execute has large global impact to the body.
-
The deadlift asks you to control the totality of the spine (most people forget to control their neck). We want the body to have a diverse set of movements that we can control. Total body tension/relaxation and control are vital for force transfer. It’s just a simple way to test a ton of qualities.



[url=https://ibb.co/Vj7ZcX5] [/url]


i dont have time to go into each one of these. but Ryan Crotin has a bunch of research out on things LINK where he talks about relationships of ER/IR strengths and other items where he discusses injury prevention.

here is a paper on the "throwers 10" for armcare LINK



driveline items that go over the studies on the ucl stresses
how elbow injuries happen LINK

comparing-flat-ground-mound-elbow-torques

post TJ research

what causes TJ surgery why overuse is not the problem

how muscles protect the ucl


why dr andrews is wrong LINK

final one im gonna post and is essentially a review of everythign and blowing holes in many of the myths by Kyle Brody
LINK
This post was edited on 5/4/23 at 12:04 pm
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