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I adhere to the biblical principle of the "regulative principle of worship" (RPW), which is a principle that describes the biblical teaching that whatever is not commanded by God in worship is forbidden. Many other Christians adhere to the normative principle of worship, which teaches that anything that God has not forbidden is allowed. The RPW can be most graphically seen in the example of Nadab and Abihu, being killed by God for worshipping God in a way He did not command (offering strange fire).

You throw the word "biblical" out there all the time like it gives your statements weight, but they're always purely subjective based on your own interpretations. In the same paragraph, for example, you note that other Christians worship normatively. You don't refer to that as biblical yet you still call these people Christians. What's implied here is that you don't actually believe how one worships is important, since we're all Christians. It really seems like you read the Bible, church history, and the Church fathers to justify your positions and eisegete that into the text.

For example, you mention Nadab and Abihu here to justify your view on RPW. But if you go back just one book to Exodus, you would see how God commanded Moses to create the tabernacle full of all those things you claimed the Orthodox "added" a few replies earlier - incense, iconography, vestments, the calendar, holy water, candles, oil, etc. So there's obviously a whole lot more going on here.

You do realize that the first Christians were Jews and they continued to go to the temple, right? Orthodox Christian liturgical practices come from 2nd temple worship. In fact, it's the fulfillment of Jewish worship. Hebrews makes this quite clear.

Just some food for thought: How do you think Jesus worshipped?

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Since you clearly believe that all oral traditions given by the Apostles are equally as authoritative to the Church today as the Bible, can you please point me to a source that lists every single oral teaching that the Apostles gave to the Church? I'd like to see a codified list of every single teaching they gave so I can know which teachings are equal in authority to the Bible, which was given and preserved for the Church.

Are you asking if oral tradition is...written down?

In seriousness, the Divine Liturgy is where you will find most everything. The Divine Liturgies of Sts John Chrysostom and Basil the Great are all over the internet. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the amount of scripture and references to scripture you'll find.

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Posted by FooManChoo

Member since Dec 2012

46873 posts

Posted on 5/29/25 at 10:48 am to Knartfocker

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You throw the word "biblical" out there all the time like it gives your statements weight, but they're always purely subjective based on your own interpretations.

All interpretations are just that. The question is whether or not an interpretation comports to the biblical data. My interpretations are guided by Scripture first and foremost, and certainly above all else. The Westminster Confession of Faith (a faithful summary of what the Scriptures teach) has this to say about Scripture: "The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture" (1.VI)

Point is that I believe all we need to know for faith and life is drawn from Scripture.

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In the same paragraph, for example, you note that other Christians worship normatively. You don't refer to that as biblical yet you still call these people Christians. What's implied here is that you don't actually believe how one worships is important, since we're all Christians.

I'm sorry if I was so unclear that you thought my insistence on the RPW meant that it doesn't matter how we worship. The use of the RPW has inherent concern for exactly how we worship God; I believe it does really matter, and that's why I made the distinction that I did.

However, I don't believe the differences in worship between a Presbyterian and a Non-Denominational Baptist, for instance, differentiate a Christian and non-Christian. I believe there are different tiers of error, leading all the way up to heresy, which is entirely unacceptable. Denying the Trinity would make someone a non-Christian, but singing man-made songs in worship doesn't make someone not a Christian. That doesn't mean worship isn't important, it just doesn't distinguish between a Christian and a non-Christian. As the WCF says, the Church is more or less pure, but she is still the Church. I hope that is more clear.

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It really seems like you read the Bible, church history, and the Church fathers to justify your positions and eisegete that into the text.

One of the benefits of being consistently sola scriptura in my view of the Scriptures is that it should minimize how much actual eisegesis is happening. Having a high regard for the Scriptures should mean that I am seeking to understand truth from the text rather than force my thoughts into the text, with the goal that I'm being conformed more and more to the truth throughout my life as the Holy Spirit enlightens me as a Christian through diligent study of the Word.

You can disagree with my interpretations and conclusions all you like, but I can support my beliefs thoroughly from the texts of Scripture, rather than appealing primarily to fallible men outside of Scripture (including myself, as I don't believe my own judgement authoritatively determines what is actually true).

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For example, you mention Nadab and Abihu here to justify your view on RPW. But if you go back just one book to Exodus, you would see how God commanded Moses to create the tabernacle full of all those things you claimed the Orthodox "added" a few replies earlier - incense, iconography, vestments, the calendar, holy water, candles, oil, etc. So there's obviously a whole lot more going on here.

Yes, there is more going on. I believe the Scriptures teach that the old covenant worship was typological of Christ and heavenly realities obtained through Him. Christ's death, burial, resurrection, and ascension changed worship for God's people, ushering us into the new covenant era. Jesus said that a day was coming when God's people would no longer worship at the temple in Jerusalem but would worship in spirit and truth. The ripping of the curtain to the holy of holies symbolized Christ as our High Priest removing the barrier to communion with God, but that we can go directly to Him now through Christ at any time, rather than through a mere human Jewish high priest once per year.

The New Testament also presents worship differently than the Old Testament. The letters of Paul, for instance, provide a lot of information about new covenant worship, including offices of Elder/Bishop and Deacon, and no longer having an office of priest (instead all Christians are said to be priests, offering sacrifices in our own bodies now).

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You do realize that the first Christians were Jews and they continued to go to the temple, right? Orthodox Christian liturgical practices come from 2nd temple worship. In fact, it's the fulfillment of Jewish worship. Hebrews makes this quite clear.

Hebrews makes it quite clear that Christ was the fulfillment of the old covenant worship. It's why the biggest controversy listed in the New Testament was about Jewish religious rites being applied to Christians. The first recorded Synod was the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15), which was constituted to deal with the issue of ritual circumcision being required for new Gentile converts.

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Just some food for thought: How do you think Jesus worshipped?

Jesus, as a Jew, worshipped according to the law of God. But as He said, He came to fulfill the law. It's why we no longer sacrifice animals at an alter at the temple; Jesus is our once-for-all sacrifice.

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Posted by Tmo Sabe