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Message
re: War On Drugs: Let's get a better understanding/conclusion. Part 1: Supply Side
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:50 pm to MButterfly
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:50 pm to MButterfly
quote:
2- Yes, starting with the movement. Just as in war disrupt the supply.
- Build the wall
What % of the total imported drug volume do you think comes from mexico?
1
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:52 pm to MButterfly
quote:
No it's not. You are prohibited from murder, yet we are not changing the law...
You're talking about two drastically different things. Drug use is a self-consent practice while murder is a violent act. Outside of a certain pathological individuals, people don't seek out violence on others. People do, however, seek out pleasurable experiences.
And to echo the point made earlier, prohibition - the act of legally preventing someone from possessing something - has never worked.
In terms of the larger discussion, the first immediate step would be to end all federal intervention into drug use. The federal government has no authority under the Constitution to criminalize the use and possession of drugs outside of the possessor passing over state lines. This criminal authority should be the within the sole discretion of the various states. Furthermore, states would be wise to immediately decriminalize the possession and use of marijuana and license it's sale. That immediately reduces tax revenue being wasted on marijuana users and will help lower violence because its pulls the marijuana market into the legal world.
From there, I would suggest that states decriminalize the possession and use of other narcotics and transfer resources into medical treatment and prevention.
This post was edited on 4/19/17 at 1:55 pm
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:52 pm to MButterfly
quote:
No it isn't. You stated it doesn't work.
This is heather/yoga girl level trolling right here.
quote:
How so?
Well....
quote:
- Label all cartels terrorist organizations!
It allows the US military more leverage in the fight.
- Take out the leadership every month. It takes time to regain control of the Cartel. Just take them out.
- We know of a production center... blow it up.
3/4- That moves us to the US side of things and we have created a mess.
- If you are in our Jails and you are a member of a gang, deport them NOW.
- Label gangs as Terrorist organization and bring in federal help.
- Add 3000 more judges. Deport new arrests within days.
quote:
Build the wall. While in itself is not the end all, it is the major problem because it handles 2 issues. The transportation of the drugs, and the movement of troops into the US. I say Troops because of the terminology used "War on Drugs"
- Man the wall. We train soldiers every day. Rotate the National Guard of every state to that border wall. That's man power, training, and it changes out the people enough that it reduces the chances of being compromised by cartel dollars. We have 50 states with national guard and 48 of those could easily be rotated out.
- Use modern tech to patrol that wall. In other words, use small drones in a pattern that changes daily.
- Use modern Tech to detect tunnels before they are completed. It's out there., we can do it.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:52 pm to MButterfly
legalize everything, tax the hell out of it
use part of revenue for education and addiction treatment
drug related crimes carry a much stricter sentence.
release non-violent offenders in for possession.
save a ton of money, make a ton of money.
use part of revenue for education and addiction treatment
drug related crimes carry a much stricter sentence.
release non-violent offenders in for possession.
save a ton of money, make a ton of money.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:53 pm to cahoots
quote:
Even if you could block 100% of foreign drugs from entering the country,
You won't. Just like you will never 100% stop murder.
quote:
you still have to worry about all of the domestically produced drugs.
Agreed. No argument from me on that. That doesn't say we should not enact the other things.
quote:
As long as demand to get high exists, suppliers will find a way to get drugs in the hands of addicts.
That's the same as gun control. You will never stop humans 100% from killing people. Take the guns... they will use other methods... like a truck.
There were about 15K murders in 2015. How many drug related?
See what I'm saying?
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:54 pm to Machine
quote:
legalize everything, tax the hell out of it
I loathe exorbitant vice taxes
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:54 pm to MButterfly
Do any of these proposals curb the American appetite for narcotics?
Why not address the incentive to bring drugs here by doing the following:
-Fully address doctors hooking people on pain management meds that can grow or create demand for cartel provided substitutes.
-if you wish to receive any federal aid you will submit to a drug test
-if states wish to tie drug testing to social services they are free to do so
-if you want tax return dollars you submit to a drug test
A bit of federal nanny stating, but we need to think about drying up demand to be successful.
Why not address the incentive to bring drugs here by doing the following:
-Fully address doctors hooking people on pain management meds that can grow or create demand for cartel provided substitutes.
-if you wish to receive any federal aid you will submit to a drug test
-if states wish to tie drug testing to social services they are free to do so
-if you want tax return dollars you submit to a drug test
A bit of federal nanny stating, but we need to think about drying up demand to be successful.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:56 pm to MButterfly
quote:
That's the same as gun control. You will never stop humans 100% from killing people. Take the guns... they will use other methods... like a truck.
There were about 15K murders in 2015. How many drug related?
See what I'm saying?
Yeah, you're proving your clamp-down on drugs is a complete farce
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:56 pm to DawnOwl
quote:
Overall, I think you have a smart plan. I look forward to the demand side of the issue.
It's as equally important and I will post that tonight.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:56 pm to Foch
quote:
-if you want tax return dollars you submit to a drug test
So basically extorting people with their own money.
We need less federal government involvement with drugs, not more.
This post was edited on 4/19/17 at 1:57 pm
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:56 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
est way to go after the cartels is to completely destroy their revenue stream i.e. legalize drugs
That's demand side, and I will show you that you are wrong!
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:57 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
I loathe exorbitant vice taxes
Posted on 4/19/17 at 1:59 pm to mindbreaker
quote:
Your "solutions" would essentially double that cost if not got so far as to quadruple it.
How so? I mean, if we are to have an honest conversation, let's hear where you think the cost will happen at?
quote:
But we need to shift our spending and thinking away from fighting and ending drugs and instead spend it on better education and rehab facilities.
That's on the demand side. I will post on that. However, give me where you feel it will cost 4 times in what we spend.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 2:01 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
The problem is that many central American countries are a so poor and the governments so corrupt that as long as there is a more lucrative industry such as drugs
That may be the case. That does not stop a cartel leader from catching a bullet with his eye lid.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 2:03 pm to diplip
quote:
What % of the total imported drug volume do you think comes from mexico?
There was more in that than where the drugs come from.
- Cartel members and gang members cross that border. Stop that while addressing the gangs here and you reduce the "car lots"
- Coming from mexico the country isn't the issue.. crossing that border is the issue.
- I addressed the cargo ships too.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 2:03 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
You're talking about two drastically different things.
As is trying to analogize alcohol prohibition with that of heroin, crack or crystal meth.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 2:03 pm to MButterfly
quote:
That may be the case. That does not stop a cartel leader from catching a bullet with his eye lid.
Then another will take his place. It's too lucrative to ignore.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 2:03 pm to MButterfly
quote:
That's demand side, and I will show you that you are wrong!
Portugal has one of the lowest rates of drug deaths in Western World
More benefits from Portugese decriminalization
quote:
Drug use has declined overall among the 15- to 24-year-old population, those most at risk of initiating drug use
quote:
There has also been a decline in the percentage of the population who have ever used a drug and then continue to do so
quote:
Drug-induced deaths have decreased steeply
quote:
HIV infection rates among injecting drug users have been reduced at a steady pace, and has become a more manageable problem in the context of other countries with high rates
quote:
Portugal saw a decrease in imprisonment on drug-related charges alongside a surge in visits to health clinics that deal with addiction and disease.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 2:06 pm to MButterfly
Your proposal has small pieces of good hidden in a giant pile of crap. If we did what you are proposing it would completely change the country for the worse and that's not worth it to try to fix the drug problem.
Your ideas from stopping the flow of drugs are the best part of the post but then it goes downhill fast.
Let's take a look at a few problems
Completely shutting trade down with Mexico would frick our economy to put it simply. Non-starter.
You want to send cruise missiles into Mexico to blow up drug production sites? Our military in to take our drug kingpins? You wan't international trade sanctions on the US. That's how you get them.
Say a illegal immigrant robs a store and shoots but doesn't kill the owner of the store. You wan't to pull that guy out of jail and send him to Mexico and turn him loose? You know that a wall won't prevent all illegal immigration right? That guy will return.
I'm sure you don't care at all but it's been proven over and over that the recidivism rate is not lowered by making prisons more miserable for prisoners. We should focus on lowering recidivism more than on satisfying our desire to treat someone as poorly as possible because they committed a crime. We can keep sticking our heads in the sand on this issue and things will stay the same.
Looking forward to your brilliant plan to fix the demand side because
is not making me very optimistic that you'll be able to come up with anything better.
Your ideas from stopping the flow of drugs are the best part of the post but then it goes downhill fast.
Let's take a look at a few problems
quote:
- Use trade as a negotiation with Mexico and others. Either we trade and you allow us to take out the production or we don't trade at all.
Completely shutting trade down with Mexico would frick our economy to put it simply. Non-starter.
quote:
- Label all cartels terrorist organizations!
It allows the US military more leverage in the fight.
- Take out the leadership every month. It takes time to regain control of the Cartel. Just take them out.
- We know of a production center... blow it up.
You want to send cruise missiles into Mexico to blow up drug production sites? Our military in to take our drug kingpins? You wan't international trade sanctions on the US. That's how you get them.
quote:
- If you are in our Jails and you are a member of a gang, deport them NOW.
Say a illegal immigrant robs a store and shoots but doesn't kill the owner of the store. You wan't to pull that guy out of jail and send him to Mexico and turn him loose? You know that a wall won't prevent all illegal immigration right? That guy will return.
quote:
- Get rid of the PC that states we must make prison life for these people friendly. This means you don't get my tax dollars to EAT or live. You get to work for the rest of your life to raise your own food, cook it, and clean up.
- Get rid of PC.... You kill somebody and it's drug related and gang related, you no longer get to be a burden. Either die, or life with out my tax dollars. You don't get air conditioning. You don't get TV. You don't get Cable. You don't get free food. You become a productive human being be selling things you are forced to make in prison.
I'm sure you don't care at all but it's been proven over and over that the recidivism rate is not lowered by making prisons more miserable for prisoners. We should focus on lowering recidivism more than on satisfying our desire to treat someone as poorly as possible because they committed a crime. We can keep sticking our heads in the sand on this issue and things will stay the same.
Looking forward to your brilliant plan to fix the demand side because
quote:
BREAK UP THE MASSIVE SCHOOLS!
is not making me very optimistic that you'll be able to come up with anything better.
Posted on 4/19/17 at 2:06 pm to MButterfly
quote:
You are prohibited from murder, yet we are not changing the law...
I remember when we prohibited alcohol and treated it like a drug. There were even American cartels selling illegal booze underground with all of the violence that went along with it.
Good times.
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