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re: Ukraine Crisis: What you're not being told
Posted on 3/14/14 at 1:28 am to Sleeping Tiger
Posted on 3/14/14 at 1:28 am to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
Because it's never in the collective narrative. It's never at the forefront of the media's attention.
Do you really believe that?
You think the media has never said that America is backing a bad dictator or a crazy drug lord or some other crazy person. They do all the time. The link to Al-Qaida rebels in Syria was talked extensively. So was the Muslim Brother Hood. No one thought Saddam was a saint he just seemed like the better option to the Shah. I'm pretty sure Noriega was talked about extensively as well. I can't speak for past leaders but I’m pretty sure everybody knew Hirohito was evil and we left him in power too. It's got nothing to do with the "collective narrative" most Americans just don't care about what occurs outside of their tiny world even if it is in their faces daily in the media.
This post was edited on 3/14/14 at 1:29 am
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Posted on 3/14/14 at 1:30 am to Sleeping Tiger
quote:I'm not wading thru this whole cesspool. Suffice it to say, the man in charge, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, is not a neonazi. If neonazis ran the revolt, they must have hired Obamacare designers to implement the aftermath power takeover, because it was apparently horribly botched.
Shrug, and why have we been able to do that? Because it's never in the collective narrative. It's never at the forefront of the media's attention.
Posted on 3/14/14 at 1:46 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Suffice it to say, the man in charge, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, is not a neonazi.
Correct. That's not what the OP claimed.
quote:
If neonazis ran the revolt, they must have hired Obamacare designers to implement the aftermath power takeover, because it was apparently horribly botched.
Svoboda and Right Sector parties have major cabinet ministries in the government. They're in control of the armed forces, national security, justice, economy and education.
These extremist groups are very much in positions of influence within the new government.
Posted on 3/14/14 at 1:57 am to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
Svoboda and Right Sector parties have major cabinet ministries in the government.
Right Sector has been described as the most organized and most effective of the Maidan forces. Following the collapse of the Yanukovych government in February 2014, with police having largely abandoned the streets of Kiev, groups of young men, including the members of Right Sector, patrol the streets armed mostly with baseball bats.[23][24]
On February 26, 2014, Right Sector leaders visited the Israeli embassy in Ukraine, telling Israeli ambassador Reuven Din-El that the group rejects anti-semitism, chauvinism, and xenophobia.[25] Right Sector participated in a funeral procession for a Jewish activist killed by authorities during the revolution.[26]
In the aftermath of the collapse of the Yanukovych government, Yarosh and Victoria Siumar were proposed as possible deputies to the Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council,[27] however, only Siumar, who is not affiliated with the Right Sector, was appointed.[28][broken citation] After that, Yarosh tried to negotiate for himself a position of the deputy head of the State Security Service[29] but has not been able to get himself appointed.[30]
In a poll conducted by the "Socis" research center from February 25 to March 4, 2014, Yarosh's possible candidacy in the upcoming presidential elections (planned for May 25, 2014) received the support of 1.6% of the people who were surveyed.[31]
On 11 March 2014 Russian State Duma deputy Valery Rashkin (ru) urged Russian special services to "follow Mossad examples" and assassinate leaders of Right sector Dmytro Yarosh and Oleksandr Muzychko.[32]
LINK
They appear to only hold one cabinet position. And only 1.6% support for their presidential bid. They are not running the country.
Posted on 3/14/14 at 2:03 am to Navtiger1
I truly hope you're intoxicated.
Before I respond to specific things in your post, you do realize there are two party names in the quote you responded to? Svoboda and Right Sector.
Svoboda being the more prominent one.
Before I respond to specific things in your post, you do realize there are two party names in the quote you responded to? Svoboda and Right Sector.
Svoboda being the more prominent one.
Posted on 3/14/14 at 2:05 am to Navtiger1
And here is a Reuter’s article which talks about Yarosh’s bid and lack of support from the people. It also talks about his fanciest leanings and how the new government does not coincide with Right Sector views.
By the way he also is demanding to know who the snipers were.
LINK
By the way he also is demanding to know who the snipers were.
LINK
Posted on 3/14/14 at 2:08 am to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
Svoboda being the more prominent one.
Well i'm not going to thier website on a government computer so you will have to just take what i have on Right Sector for now.
Posted on 3/14/14 at 2:10 am to Navtiger1
quote:
Well i'm not going to thier website on a government computer so you will have to just take what i have on Right Sector for now.
Weirdest response I've ever seen on this site.
Posted on 3/14/14 at 2:12 am to Navtiger1
quote:
And here is a Reuter’s article which talks about Yarosh’s bid and lack of support from the people. It also talks about his fanciest leanings and how the new government does not coincide with Right Sector views.
By the way he also is demanding to know who the snipers were.
No clue why you are focused on Right Sector and totally ignoring the far more prominent group, Svoboda.
I'm going to have to assume you're being intentionally disingenuous.
Posted on 3/14/14 at 2:14 am to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
Weirdest response I've ever seen on this site.
Highly doubtful.
Here you go. Looks like Haran thinks they will make fine Democrats.
Sorry that was Umland who thinks they willmake fine Democrates not Haran.
Olexiy Haran, a political science professor at the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, says “There is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding Svoboda" and that the party is not fascist, but radical.[77] Ihor Kolomoyskyi, president of the United Jewish Community of Ukraine, stated in 2010 that the party has clearly shifted from the far-right to the center.[78]
Political scientist Andreas Umland predicted the party would continue to become more moderate over time, and that "there's a belief that Svoboda will change, once in the Verkhovna Rada, and that they may become proper national democrats."[40] Since then, the party has gained seats in parliament and has net over 10% of the national vote in the 2012 parliamentary elections. The US ambassador in Kiev, Geoffrey Pyatt, said in 2014 that he had been "positively impressed" by Svoboda's evolution in opposition and by its behavior in parliament. "They have demonstrated their democratic bona fides," the ambassador asserted.[75]
In government
[edit]Oleksandr Sych - Vice Prime Minister
Andriy Mokhnyk- Minister of Ecology
Ihor Shvayka - Minister of Agriculture
Ihor Tenyukh - Minister of Defence
LINK
It seems they have been in the government since before all of this started.
This post was edited on 3/14/14 at 2:20 am
Posted on 3/14/14 at 2:15 am to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
I truly hope you're intoxicated.
I could say this about every post you make nearly every night.
Posted on 3/14/14 at 2:44 am to Navtiger1
quote:
Highly doubtful.
Actually it truly was one of the weirder comments I've seen on here.
You had just looked up and shared information on Right Sector, but then said you didn't want to look up Svoboda on a government computer..
That is a strange comment.
quote:
Olexiy Haran, a political science professor at the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, says “There is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding Svoboda" and that the party is not fascist, but radical.[77] Ihor Kolomoyskyi, president of the United Jewish Community of Ukraine, stated in 2010 that the party has clearly shifted from the far-right to the center.[78]
Political scientist Andreas Umland predicted the party would continue to become more moderate over time, and that "there's a belief that Svoboda will change, once in the Verkhovna Rada, and that they may become proper national democrats."[40] Since then, the party has gained seats in parliament and has net over 10% of the national vote in the 2012 parliamentary elections. The US ambassador in Kiev, Geoffrey Pyatt, said in 2014 that he had been "positively impressed" by Svoboda's evolution in opposition and by its behavior in parliament. "They have demonstrated their democratic bona fides," the ambassador asserted.[75]
This was all in the video in the OP, hope you're not attempting to be informative.
quote:
In government
[edit]Oleksandr Sych - Vice Prime Minister
Andriy Mokhnyk- Minister of Ecology
Ihor Shvayka - Minister of Agriculture
Ihor Tenyukh - Minister of Defence
LINK
It seems they have been in the government since before all of this started.
This is disingenuous. You make it look like those names held those positions before the new government took over, which is not true.
Those representatives of Svoboda were named after the regime change.
And it's interesting that you chose to value the past in this instance, but you did not extend that courtesy to your first point. If the same guy in charge of Svovoba now is the same guy who was in charge when it was an openly neo-nazi fascist party, don't you think it's likely he still has the same beliefs? What you shared says "there's a belief that they will change, that they may become proper democrats". Oh, that's great, it doesn't matter that they have been an openly violent nazi organization in the past, there is hope they might change. Do your really think that is a legitimate point you're making?
Posted on 3/14/14 at 2:49 am to Sleeping Tiger
Well I gave you a response in regards to Svoboda and the fact that they have held elected office since before all the upheaval and change in government. And I see as usual you have nothing intelligent to say, so who is being intentionally disingenuous?
The fact is that this is nothing new in European politics. You can find fanciest party members all over Europe, hell we have them here. It’s just a political party and not the rise of a new Nazi Germany. Russia is just using this as propaganda to justify their actions.
I have work to do so I’m out!
The fact is that this is nothing new in European politics. You can find fanciest party members all over Europe, hell we have them here. It’s just a political party and not the rise of a new Nazi Germany. Russia is just using this as propaganda to justify their actions.
I have work to do so I’m out!
Posted on 3/14/14 at 2:55 am to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
Actually it truly was one of the weirder comments I've seen on here.
You had just looked up and shared information on Right Sector, but then said you didn't want to look up Svoboda on a government computer..
That is a strange comment.
I did not want to go to their official site on a government computer. The Wiki link did not seem to have much regarding the current situation.
quote:
This is disingenuous. You make it look like those names held those positions before the new government took over, which is not true.
No, this is wiki not my words theirs. I posted the section about politics.
quote:
And it's interesting that you chose to value the past in this instance, but you did not extend that courtesy to your first point. If the same guy in charge of Svovoba now is the same guy who was in charge when it was an openly neo-nazi fascist party, don't you think it's likely he still has the same beliefs? What you shared says "there's a belief that they will change, that they may become proper democrats". Oh, that's great, it doesn't matter that they have been an openly violent nazi organization in the past, there is hope they might change. Do your really think that is a legitimate point you're making?
Everything I shared came from wiki. I know very little about political parties in Eastern Europe. Hell Louisiana has over 50 different political parties i don't know their full backgrounds and history either.
Posted on 3/14/14 at 2:56 am to Navtiger1
quote:
Well I gave you a response in regards to Svoboda and the fact that they have held elected office since before all the upheaval and change in government.
All of those ministers you listed did not assume those positions until after the regime change.
quote:
It’s just a political party and not the rise of a new Nazi Germany.
No one is saying it is and to make this statement shows you're terribly confused.
Posted on 3/14/14 at 3:02 am to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
All of those ministers you listed did not assume those positions until after the regime change.
They have held seats in parliament since before 2012. The ministers may be new appointees, but the party has been in the government since before all of this started. They did not just get a seat at the table with this uprising.
quote:
Since then, the party has gained seats in parliament and has net over 10% of the national vote in the 2012 parliamentary elections.
Posted on 3/14/14 at 3:03 am to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
No one is saying it is and to make this statement shows you're terribly confused.
So what is your fear of a socialist former neo-Nazi party having political power in Europe? Hezbollah a former terror organization holds political office now, what is the difference?
Posted on 3/14/14 at 3:14 am to Navtiger1
quote:
So what is your fear of a socialist former neo-Nazi party having political power in Europe? Hezbollah a former terror organization holds political office now, what is the difference?
The issue isn't my fear of them having power.
I'll repeat, you're terribly confused.
Posted on 3/14/14 at 3:24 am to Navtiger1
quote:
They have held seats in parliament since before 2012. The ministers may be new appointees, but the party has been in the government since before all of this started. They did not just get a seat at the table with this uprisin
I shouldn't respond to this because it spawned from previous misunderstandings.
They were just given control of these major ministries -- armed forces, national security, economy, justice and education. There power and influence has been greatly increased. Remember this spawned from your belief that they did not even have power in the new government.
This post was edited on 3/14/14 at 3:37 am
Posted on 3/14/14 at 6:00 am to Sleeping Tiger
quote:No.
I shouldn't respond to this because it spawned from previous misunderstandings.
This """spawned""" from your misunderstanding.
You characterized the Ukrainian ruling party as a "neo-nazi fascist regime." It was a mischaracterization.
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