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The most comprehensive links of treatment data for COVID-19
Posted on 3/29/20 at 4:38 pm
Posted on 3/29/20 at 4:38 pm
...that I have come across
What I've personally read outside of this: Essentially all the hydroxychloroquine data from primary sources and some decent high-quality summaries (namely from UpToDate) of most of the rest of it.
What I think: IDSA is generally reliable, interprets the data fairly similar to how I interpret it, and is (based on reading them for the last 5-7 years) somewhere between unbiased and carrying the same biases I do.
Why am I sharing this? Mostly to show that there are a handful of other treatments being considered and to highlight what two essentially independent groups (IDSA and UpToDate, though UpToDate will take into consideration IDSA and other professional society guidelines when making recommendations) really think of the data that's out there. What I think is important to note (and I generally think will get overlooked) is that neither group says "don't use (this)." More importantly, its existence is to show doctors fighting this thing the quality of what is out there and connect them to the current trials available if they think they'll have a patient who should get it.
What would I do?
It's really case-by-case, and I don't like to talk about treatments so generally. It isn't meant to be a cop-out, so I'll try. In someone at home, good supportive care. I would not tell them to avoid NSAIDs if they would not otherwise avoid NSAIDs at this time. I am slightly intrigued by the use of indomethacin with anecdotal (though no real published data that has passed any scrutiny) evidence AGAINST ibuprofen specifically, though anecdotally I find indomethacin to be the least-well-tolerated NSAID that I use.
If they are sick enough to have pneumonia but well enough to be treated at home, I'll probably start plaquenil if I can get them to get hold of any +/- azithro.
Azithro I have posted on a few times. It has an interesting novelty to it (in patients in an ICU with severe pneumonia, they die less when it's included in the regimen. I've linked before. Feeling lazy now but will find it if someone else is interested enough but not interested in googling essentially what I wrote, I'll find it). It seems to be unknown why but proposed that it is immunomodulatory, or at least that's the theory I ascribe to. I accept that we cannot know all things but can fairly reliably observe this one as a "do it." That sort of is where I am at on Plaquenil as well. Though it would not surprise me if down the road we find no benefit. Doesn't mean I won't do it while it's "hot" or anything, and I don't deny there has been some evidence of success, but I do tend to think we live in a scary time where it's not crazy to be more excited about an upside without having actually observed said upside. We also won't observe it if we don't use it (and study it).
I probably will reserve steroids until someone is worsening in the hospital. I would probably still give solu-medrol ~60mg daily which actually has shown, in quite limited data, to be semi-beneficial. I'm not convinced of the detriment of patients receiving steroids in ARDS but don't think high-doses of corticosteroids are generally useful. At least in this case, there's some (not great) data to latch a wagon to, and it's outcome data at that, though it's a tiny group.
But really, why do you share this?
I don't think I'm an authority. I don't think I'm that smart or a better doctor or a better critical thinker than anyone else. I'm bored. And I like to share what I think and how I think with others. You may agree, disagree, etc. That's wonderful, and I like to hear about disagreements. But I thought a generally "analytic" approach of a guy who does this and is sitting around waiting for a shitstorm to hit may be of interest to some of you.
Anyway, here's the IDSA link for those who stuck it out to the end (or jumped down to the second blue part)
What I've personally read outside of this: Essentially all the hydroxychloroquine data from primary sources and some decent high-quality summaries (namely from UpToDate) of most of the rest of it.
What I think: IDSA is generally reliable, interprets the data fairly similar to how I interpret it, and is (based on reading them for the last 5-7 years) somewhere between unbiased and carrying the same biases I do.
Why am I sharing this? Mostly to show that there are a handful of other treatments being considered and to highlight what two essentially independent groups (IDSA and UpToDate, though UpToDate will take into consideration IDSA and other professional society guidelines when making recommendations) really think of the data that's out there. What I think is important to note (and I generally think will get overlooked) is that neither group says "don't use (this)." More importantly, its existence is to show doctors fighting this thing the quality of what is out there and connect them to the current trials available if they think they'll have a patient who should get it.
What would I do?
It's really case-by-case, and I don't like to talk about treatments so generally. It isn't meant to be a cop-out, so I'll try. In someone at home, good supportive care. I would not tell them to avoid NSAIDs if they would not otherwise avoid NSAIDs at this time. I am slightly intrigued by the use of indomethacin with anecdotal (though no real published data that has passed any scrutiny) evidence AGAINST ibuprofen specifically, though anecdotally I find indomethacin to be the least-well-tolerated NSAID that I use.
If they are sick enough to have pneumonia but well enough to be treated at home, I'll probably start plaquenil if I can get them to get hold of any +/- azithro.
Azithro I have posted on a few times. It has an interesting novelty to it (in patients in an ICU with severe pneumonia, they die less when it's included in the regimen. I've linked before. Feeling lazy now but will find it if someone else is interested enough but not interested in googling essentially what I wrote, I'll find it). It seems to be unknown why but proposed that it is immunomodulatory, or at least that's the theory I ascribe to. I accept that we cannot know all things but can fairly reliably observe this one as a "do it." That sort of is where I am at on Plaquenil as well. Though it would not surprise me if down the road we find no benefit. Doesn't mean I won't do it while it's "hot" or anything, and I don't deny there has been some evidence of success, but I do tend to think we live in a scary time where it's not crazy to be more excited about an upside without having actually observed said upside. We also won't observe it if we don't use it (and study it).
I probably will reserve steroids until someone is worsening in the hospital. I would probably still give solu-medrol ~60mg daily which actually has shown, in quite limited data, to be semi-beneficial. I'm not convinced of the detriment of patients receiving steroids in ARDS but don't think high-doses of corticosteroids are generally useful. At least in this case, there's some (not great) data to latch a wagon to, and it's outcome data at that, though it's a tiny group.
But really, why do you share this?
I don't think I'm an authority. I don't think I'm that smart or a better doctor or a better critical thinker than anyone else. I'm bored. And I like to share what I think and how I think with others. You may agree, disagree, etc. That's wonderful, and I like to hear about disagreements. But I thought a generally "analytic" approach of a guy who does this and is sitting around waiting for a shitstorm to hit may be of interest to some of you.
Anyway, here's the IDSA link for those who stuck it out to the end (or jumped down to the second blue part)
This post was edited on 3/29/20 at 11:41 pm
Posted on 3/29/20 at 4:46 pm to Hopeful Doc
Thanks for the input. Good strong post that people can get info from.
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