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re: The erroneous concept that man is basically good leads to many errors
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:08 am to Revelator
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:08 am to Revelator
quote:
I’m talking about the nature of fallen man
Your OP doesn’t say that. It starts with the premise that man is evil and wicked. Man wasn’t evil and wicked until the devil.
This post was edited on 1/1/22 at 11:09 am
2
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:09 am to Revelator
Rev
I’m not sure we disagree but I would argue that man by his very nature because it is created by God is good. Does that mean he will be able to choose good over evil on his own, I think that is debatable. Can a man who isn’t baptized act in a good way and do good deeds, yes. Can a man who is baptized commit evil deeds and act in a bad way, yes. I think the question is can man redeem himself and the clear answer to that is no. Only God can give saving grace. However, receiving saving grace doesn’t mean that one will act good or evil, and not having saving grace doesn’t mean one will necessarily commit only evil.
Do human beings tend to commit more good or evil that is debatable and we may agree with each other.
But personally when this question comes up I look to the nature of man instead of what acts he commits. Because God created man, man’s nature is good. Sin has led him to commit evil.
I’m not sure we disagree but I would argue that man by his very nature because it is created by God is good. Does that mean he will be able to choose good over evil on his own, I think that is debatable. Can a man who isn’t baptized act in a good way and do good deeds, yes. Can a man who is baptized commit evil deeds and act in a bad way, yes. I think the question is can man redeem himself and the clear answer to that is no. Only God can give saving grace. However, receiving saving grace doesn’t mean that one will act good or evil, and not having saving grace doesn’t mean one will necessarily commit only evil.
Do human beings tend to commit more good or evil that is debatable and we may agree with each other.
But personally when this question comes up I look to the nature of man instead of what acts he commits. Because God created man, man’s nature is good. Sin has led him to commit evil.
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:11 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
Sin has led him to commit evil.
Sin doesn’t make anyone do anything. Sin is the result of temptation. Temptation is the result of evil. Evil is the result of the devil.
This post was edited on 1/1/22 at 11:12 am
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:12 am to DownSouthJukin
quote:
Sin is the result of evil. Evil is the result of the devil.
Yes, I should have phrased it that way.
Man was created good but due to the influence of the devil man chose sin and let sin enter the world. Now because of the influence of evil man can and does choose sin.
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:14 am to DownSouthJukin
quote:In Christianity, we refer to man’s current nature as “fallen” due to Adam’s fall into sin, which caused all his posterity to be born with a sinful nature.
Your OP doesn’t say that. It starts with the premise that man is evil and wicked. Man wasn’t evil and wicked until the devil.
When talking about man’s nature, it is assumed we are talking post-fall.
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:14 am to catholictigerfan
I had to edit to throw temptation in since it comes before sin.
I don’t mean to harp on it, but so many ignore the devil and chalk up the ills of man to man itself.
I don’t mean to harp on it, but so many ignore the devil and chalk up the ills of man to man itself.
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:15 am to FooManChoo
quote:
When talking about man’s nature, it is assumed we are talking post-fall.
Again-your OP doesn’t say that in any respect and never mentions the reason for man’s fall-the temptation of the devil.
There can’t be any real theological discussion about the good or evil of man without taking that into account first.
This post was edited on 1/1/22 at 11:17 am
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:17 am to DownSouthJukin
quote:We are fighting against the world (sinfulness of others), the flesh (our own sinful inclinations), and the devil (Satan and his minions).
Sin doesn’t make anyone do anything. Sin is the result of temptation. Temptation is the result of evil. Evil is the result of the devil
We shouldn’t pin everything on Satan because we do more than our fair share of sin and rebellion on our own. Satan doesn’t force us to sin.
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:18 am to DownSouthJukin
quote:
Your OP doesn’t say that. It starts with the premise that man is evil and wicked. Man wasn’t evil and wicked until the devil.
I assumed most people understand we are post-fall. Why would that need to be explained?
quote:
Man wasn’t evil and wicked until the devil.
Man always had the ability to sin
This post was edited on 1/1/22 at 11:22 am
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:20 am to catholictigerfan
Fallen man is evil and if the devil suddenly disappeared from the scene, mankind would still move towards evil, especially if the Holy Spirit were removed. Collectively it seems evil grows exponentially. I think the frustration is that so many are blind to that disposition and trust man/government to do what’s right, when in fact history paints an opposite picture. Even in American history, the struggle has never disappeared, it’s just that we have been blessed of God. Whether we are still under that blessing is debatable, my own opinion is that we are now under judgment.
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:20 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
I would argue that man by his very nature because it is created by God is good.
It’s God himself, through his word that says we aren’t good. Jesus said the same thing.
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:22 am to DownSouthJukin
quote:Satan only tempts. He cannot force anyone to sin.
Again-your OP doesn’t say that in any respect and never mentions the reason for man’s fall-the temptation of the devil.
There can’t be any real theological discussion about the good or evil of man without taking that into account first.
Recall that Satan tempted Jesus but Jesus did not give in to that temptation as Adam did.
The scriptures tell us that we are fallen in sin and cannot do what is good in God’s sight without faith, and faith is the gift of God. Therefore, only the regenerated man, who is so by the transformative work of the Holy Spirit to remove our hearts of stone and give us hearts of flesh, can do what is “good”.
Satan is real but he doesn’t need to tempt fallen creatures to sin. We do that willingly all the time.
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:23 am to Revelator
quote:
Man always had the ability to sin
Ability to sin =\= sinning
Introduce evil into the equation and you get sin.
There is no sin without evil (or bad intentions or however you want to phrase it).
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:26 am to FooManChoo
quote:
FooManChoo
I don’t disagree with any of that.
Please don’t think I’m removing man’s free will from the equation. We are not forced to sin. But there is a path along which we travel that leads to sin, if we so choose, and temptation is a part of it.
This post was edited on 1/1/22 at 11:27 am
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:27 am to Revelator
quote:
It’s God himself, through his word that says we aren’t good. Jesus said the same thing.
The problem with that argument is that God cannot create evil. Therefore the nature of man is good in itself as it was at the creation of Adam and Eve. Man by his own choice let sin into the world. We corrupt our nature but at the very basis of man is good.
Yes I understand what the scripture seems to say. But the interpretation of scripture must be tested against logic and reason. If a scripture passage seems to go against logic and reason, than the interpretation is flawed not the scripture itself.
It’s not that logic and reason are above scripture but truth can’t contradict truth. It’s clear that God can’t create evil, so therefore man’s nature is good. So how does the phrase no one is good but God work with that truth.
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:31 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
Therefore the nature of man is good in itself
Does a child have to be taught to lie, steal, be selfish, throw tantrums, hit others?
quote:
If a scripture passage seems to go against logic and reason, than the interpretation is flawed not the scripture itself.
Look at the atrocities done by man throughout history and to this day. How is it illogical to Interpret that he is not good?
This post was edited on 1/1/22 at 11:35 am
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:32 am to DownSouthJukin
quote:
There is no sin without evil
What caused Lucifer to sin?
This post was edited on 1/1/22 at 11:37 am
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:34 am to catholictigerfan
God created man good, but that doesn’t mean we remained that way. We are image-bearers of God, created to reflect God’s communicable attributes to the rest of creation, but after the fall, we are more like a broken mirror, not able to fully reflect God’s image as we should.
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:36 am to catholictigerfan
There are two classes of men. Adam, as created, along with regenerarate man are no longer separated from God. All others are. Doesn’t mean fallen man lacks the image of God or the potential to be joined back, but FALLEN man, desires and moves towards evil and if God weren’t active in this evil world, things would be end-times bad. Does the argument come back to when a baby is born into the world, he/she has a bent towards evil or good? The Bible says the bent is towards evil.
Posted on 1/1/22 at 11:41 am to Revelator
quote:
Does a child have to be taught to lie, steal, be selfish, throw tantrums, hit others?
Not directly taught but I would argue that they are learned activities.
This would get into the idea of original sin which I don’t believe you believe in.
Man’s nature is in its essence is good, but that doesn’t mean he can’t commit evil.
Again the concept is simple.
God is good and can do no evil.
God created man
Man is therefore good.
One more thing to consider. Is Jesus human nature good? I would argue obviously yes. He shares our human nature and if his nature is good than ours is too.
But again nature doesn’t have to do with how a man will act, instead who he is by his nature or essence.
quote:
Look at the atrocities done by man throughout history and to this day. How is it illogical to Interpret that he is not good?
As explained above man’s nature his essence or maybe you could say the stuff he is made of is good.
The question isn’t about our nature it’s about what can God create. Can God create evil. No. Therefore man by logically necessity is good.
This post was edited on 1/1/22 at 11:45 am
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