re: SCOTUS Lifts stay on Ledell Lee execution

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I'm glad you brought up Jesus' execution. I think that's a perfect example. He was, by all accounts, wrongfully executed by the government. When he was being killed, he prayed for his persecutors - as it was happening. "They know not what they do." It was a flawed system. It's not any better today.

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This was a good example of a wrongful execution but it didn't nullify the authority of the government to put people to death and it didn't remove the legitimacy of the death penalty. As stated, Jesus did not condemn the practice. In fact, He relied on it to accomplish His mission. If He were not put to death, we would still be in sin and not have salvation.

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Jesus himself stepped in front of a death sentence and challenged anyone who was without sin to commence the killing.

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He didn't intervene because He was against the death penalty. Jesus came to uphold the law and the law stated that if a couple were caught in adultery, they would both be put to death. The witnesses of the act were required to throw the first stones. Since the man who was also caught in adultery wasn't present and since the witnesses were no where to be found, Jesus was making a point to the Pharisees: if they were so eager to uphold the law, the law was clear and they could commence with the stoning as required by the law, but only if it were done the right way according to the law. Since the Pharisees didn't really care about the law and only wanted to trap Jesus, He showed them their hypocrisy with His retort. However, He was not condemning the death penalty in this instance, especially since He told them to uphold the law by stoning her. Since the requirements of the law were not met, He did not condemn her to death (it wasn't His place since He wasn't a witness) but told her to sin no longer.

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Jesus challenged the "eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" teachings that was defined in the old law. Remember, that wasn't a license for revenge - but rather a limitation of what could be done in retaliation.

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You're right that the law was not a license for personal revenge and that was what Jesus was teaching against. He did not nullify the right of the civil magistrate to exact justice in accordance with the crime committed, though. Jesus' teaching was to separate the role of the government from the role of the individual seeking justice.

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This has been something that I've struggled to grapple with while attempting for form my complete thoughts on the matter. To me, acknowledging the government has the authority is completely different than supporting the action itself.

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I don't see it that way. It's fine to not like someone being put to death but it's a different matter to acknowledge the authority of the government to do that. We aren't talking about what we like, but what is right and good to do. What the other poster quoted was the principle that if you destroy someone made in God's image, you have forfeited your own life, as God has not granted authority for individuals to take life unjustly. The government has authority to take a life as punish for a person taking another's life unjustly. Again, we don't have to like it, but the Bible is clear that such a thing is not just authorized, but expected in some situations.

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If we take Jesus at his word, then there is a better way. We love our enemies. We turn the other cheek and pray for those who persecute us. We love our neighbor as ourself - including the person who would traditionally be considered our enemy. These were all radical teachings from Jesus. Jesus was grace personified. It's difficult for me to reconcile anything about he death penalty with anything about Jesus or his teachings.

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I think what you are getting hung up on is the difference in roles between a civilian and the civil magistrate. Jesus' teachings had to do with people dealing with other people as civilians or lay persons. He wasn't commenting on what right or authority the government had in those verses. In fact, He does acknowledge the rights of the government in other passages, such as when He performed a miracle to pay His taxes of what was owed (rightly) to the government. We can't take Jesus' teachings of how we are to interact with one another as prescriptive for the government, as well, in every case. Otherwise, there would be no justice as the government would let all rapists and murderers off the hook to show grace and mercy.

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If I am a "Christ follower," I simply can not be an advocate of the death penalty,

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So you're rebelling against the Scripture's proclamation that the executioner is God's agent.

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How can I, as a sick, flawed human, point to another person's sins and say they deserve to die?

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Simple. Because scripture says he deserves to die.

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I think what you are getting hung up on is the difference in roles between a civilian and the civil magistrate. Jesus' teachings had to do with people dealing with other people as civilians or lay persons. He wasn't commenting on what right or authority the government had in those verses. In fact, He does acknowledge the rights of the government in other passages, such as when He performed a miracle to pay His taxes of what was owed (rightly) to the government. We can't take Jesus' teachings of how we are to interact with one another as prescriptive for the government, as well, in every case. Otherwise, there would be no justice as the government would let all rapists and murderers off the hook to show grace and mercy.

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This is all very well stated. I admittedly struggle with all of this. I don't know how to remove myself, and how I view other people, from how I wish to see the government carry out their role towards those same people.

I'm not sure I will ever be able to reconcile the two.

What I do know is that our current system is severely flawed, and if I remove my religious prejudices, I still don't think I could support the government's use of capital punishment in most cases. We know capital cases cost more money to tax payers, prolong the suffering of the families of the victims (and in many cases make it worse), and do not deter crime. We also have a lot of evidence to show we've gotten it wrong a lot.

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I admittedly struggle with all of this.

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Much of what you struggle with here is the fact that you stubbornly and arrogantly refuse to accept God's word on the subject because you don't like it or it makes you uncomfortable or it hurts your feelings.

Get over it. Pray about it, if that helps. Get past your own sensitive feelings and just accept the Scripture. It's your own sinful human pride that's getting in your way. Just the idea of "accepting scripture but not advocating for it" as you worded it, is mind boggingly prideful and arrogant. Just submit to God's word.

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What about the Old Testament? Is that not scripture, inspired by God? Did not Jesus and the Apostles teach from the Old Testament? Was not Jesus the law-giver in the Old Testament, existing as God prior to His incarnation?

It's dangerous to take a cleaver to the Bible between the OT and the NT, as all 66 books are God-breathed. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to do away with it completely, and where there is continuity between the Old and the New, it must be recognized. Principles laid out in the OT are upheld in the NT. The moral law of God and God's revealed will do not change when Jesus was born as a man as God does not change.

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Jesus' blood was the atonement. No cleaver needed. He completed it, made it whole. He was the ultimate blood sacrifice for sin. Death as a punishment for sin was defeated through Jesus, IMO.

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So you're rebelling against the Scripture's proclamation that the executioner is God's agent.


You're being awfully liberal in your interpretation of scripture with the word "executioner." Twisting it to fit an agenda. Be careful.

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Simple. Because scripture says he deserves to die.


You sure about that? Who gets to decide that? You? The individual? Who gives you, the sinner, that authority?

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You're more intelligent than this. What other logical interpretation is there? Terror? Bearing a sword? Please. Now you're just desperate because you know you've lost the debate, and you're too prideful to admit it.

Who gives the state the authority? God, in Romans 13.

Your own arrogance is your downfall. You've lost this debate, and now you're just trying to save face.

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You're more intelligent than this. What other logical interpretation is there? Terror? Bearing a sword? Please. Now you're just desperate because you know you've lost the debate, and you're too prideful to admit it.

Who gives the state the authority? God, in Romans 13.

Your own arrogance is your downfall. You've lost this debate, and now you're just trying to save face.

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I think you're either misinterpreting my posts or have formed your own prejudice against me before entering this conversation.

"Because God says the government can" is a cop-out, don't you think?

Read back in Romans 3. All have sinned. All have fallen short of the glory of God. None of us are any better than anyone else. Gentile and Jew. All the same. And we are all justified through grace due to the atonement of Jesus. Right? If you agree with those things... on a personal level - how do you justify your advocation of putting someone - who is no more sinful than you - to death? Don't you deserve the same sentence, if you're looking at it from a scriptural perspective?

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My personal opinion? I don't think anyone, in any position here on earth has the right to take another person's life. And although it's a really unpopular opinion, I don't believe anyone's life is fully irredeemable in some way. Nobody is "worthless." That belief is tough to maintain in some cases, and even harder to defend. But I truly believe that

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i'm sure that extends to the life of an unborn child. amirite!

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Kill people, you dead.

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I find it interesting that so many people who believe our govt is so incompetent believe that our govt will only convict and execute the guilty. These are the same people that run the DMV, IRS, TSA, etc.