re: Paging Aubie101 re: "Once saved always saved"

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Still keeping yourself saved...

Man's desire to take credit is strong.

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Yes, the whole free will thing is pretty key to our theology.

Again my drink water analogy. God gives you the water but we still have to drink it. We have the choice to drink or not.

Deuteronomy 30:19

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I call heaven and earth today to witness against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live,

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We really have very different beliefs.

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so you don't believe in free will?

Cooperating in God's grace is key to our belief. It doesn't take away from God's power. or as sovereignty. It respects our free will.

edit: Mary's role in our salvation is a different topic all together.

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Mary's role in our salvation is a different topic all together.

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That's why I wrote we have very different beliefs. Mary plays no role whatsoever in my salvation. She herself needed a savior.

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That's why I wrote we have very different beliefs. Mary plays no role whatsoever in my salvation. She herself needed a savior.

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Did Mary play a role in God's plan to save us?

edit: let me rephrase

was Mary a part of God's plan to bring about salvation through Jesus Christ?

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FATBOY TIGER

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What's your point?

Mary was a chosen vessel, a tremendous honor indeed, but she has no part in salvation.

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I get what you are saying but this is just your opinion on how the Church and those in the Church approach the scriptures.

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I don't believe it's merely my opinion. My belief is straight forward: the Bible alone is the highest authority that governs the faith and life of the Christian. If Rome or anyone else teaches differently, they are by necessity adding authorities that will at times supersede the authority of the Bible.

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The scripture is a part of Divine Revelation

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And here is where we differ. I believe scripture is the only divine revelation that exists today, so it isn't "part of" divine revelation, but it is the only divine revelation that we have.

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what it deposits as truth must be upheld at all times. When the Church teaches it is doing so at the service of the scripture, not that it has more authority than the scripture.

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Functionally, this is inaccurate. As I stated previously, if the church teaches something that is not supported by the scriptures or teaches something that is in direct contradiction to the scriptures, then the church has been elevated to an authority equal to, and functionally, greater than the scriptures, regardless of what is said about its service.

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Let me try an analogy. It will fall short in some ways as all analogies do but it may help explain the Church's position.

Say for example you are taking a class on biology. The professor is the authority in the room and you assume that what he teaches is the truth. Does that mean the professor has authority over the truth of biology? Certainly not, rather he is at the service of the truth of biology. Make sense?

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It makes sense but that's not what happens. It's more like this:

The professor is teaching the class things that are not contained in the biology text book, some of which seem to be in direct contradiction to the text book. Those in the class are being required to implicitly believe whatever the teacher says on the subject even though other biology professors have said different things from what this professor is saying in addition to the professor requiring the class to learn and believe things that go beyond what the text book seems to require. If you refuse to believe everything the professor tells you, you are kicked out of class and prevented from ever graduating.

The problem isn't simply that the professor is an authority figure that is helping students learn biology from the source of truth in the textbook. The problem is that the professor makes himself the infallible standard that truth about biology is judged by, and if the student believes that there is a disagreement between the text book and the teachings of the professor, the student always must side with the word of the professor instead of what the words of the textbook.

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Basically Divine Revelation is higher than the teaching authority of the Church. However the teaching authority of the Church is more than just a mere opinion. It has the backing of God himself and the Holy Spirit (basically the same thing).

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Again, if the church is the one who determines what is "divine revelation" and the church is the only one who can interpret "divine revelation", then the church is functionally a greater authority than the divine revelation it claims to serve, because the faithful are not to submit ultimately to that divine revelation, but to what the church says about it.

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If something is seemingly contradictory to scripture then it's not enough to simply say, well the Church has taught the following. Instead we should discuss it, how does X scripture passage make sense with Y interpretation.

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That's fine and all, but once the church has discussed it and come to a conclusion, that's it. That decision is authoritative and the Christian is required to submit to it or risk being damned, even if that decision is wrong.

I put my implicit trust in Jesus Christ alone, not in fallible men. I recognize that God has provided authorities for His people to submit to, but those authorities are not to be submitted to without question when the truth of God's word is at stake. I must be like Peter and John before the Jewish Council in Acts 4 and put my trust and obedience in the God's word rather than man's word.

Scripture tells us how to pray and that there is one mediator between man and God.
Seems important, so where in scripture is Mary a mediatrix?

Revelation 5:8

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When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

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bold is mine.

Prayers of the holy ones in heaven. Why would asking for Mary to pray for us be wrong? If scripture itself speaks to the intercession of the saints (holy ones)