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re: One soldier: Finland MOH winner, then Waffen SS in WWII. Then Green Beret 'Nam hero.
Posted on 6/9/19 at 9:09 pm to ChewyDante
Posted on 6/9/19 at 9:09 pm to ChewyDante
Waffen SS certainly collaborated in the round up of Jews and civilians in Easter Europe.
STFU!They deliberately and murdered American captives in France
Honestly,I have no problem with what most of what the Wermacht did but what the Waffen did to US troops is unforgivable.
I completely understand and IF the Waffen was somewhat comparable to the rest of the Warmacht you might have a point
quote:
And? No one said they were all angels. They were a part of one of the most brutal and difficult conflicts in human history
STFU!They deliberately and murdered American captives in France
Honestly,I have no problem with what most of what the Wermacht did but what the Waffen did to US troops is unforgivable.
quote:
War is not morally black and white.
I completely understand and IF the Waffen was somewhat comparable to the rest of the Warmacht you might have a point
3
Posted on 6/9/19 at 10:00 pm to RD Dawg
Wasn’t this guy the protagonist in Robin Moore’s book and the character John Wayne played in the movie?
Posted on 6/9/19 at 10:26 pm to RD Dawg
The Heer embraced maneuver warfare, and what they called Auftragstaktik.
You’d be ordered to take a hill, but how would be entirely up to you, the junior officer. You would create the tactical plan. That was inspired, because the junior officer could actually see the ground, and was in the best position to plan the assault. And if conditions changed, or the plan faltered, he was in the best position to correct it. It was the very opposite of the Tsarist model where all major decisions came down from on high.
The Germans also punished officers for failing to exploit conditions. You could never get away with saying “no one told me to.” If conditions were advantageous, you attacked.
As a result, the Germans were very aggressive. When we made a mistake, or conditions favored them, they attacked.
The US Army didn’t fight that way. We fought the way Grant did in the East. We massed our forces for battles of annihilation, and inflicted casualties through overwhelming firepower. Individual autonomy was not a major feature, and was in many ways, undesirable. Destruction of the enemy force was always paramount.
You’d be ordered to take a hill, but how would be entirely up to you, the junior officer. You would create the tactical plan. That was inspired, because the junior officer could actually see the ground, and was in the best position to plan the assault. And if conditions changed, or the plan faltered, he was in the best position to correct it. It was the very opposite of the Tsarist model where all major decisions came down from on high.
The Germans also punished officers for failing to exploit conditions. You could never get away with saying “no one told me to.” If conditions were advantageous, you attacked.
As a result, the Germans were very aggressive. When we made a mistake, or conditions favored them, they attacked.
The US Army didn’t fight that way. We fought the way Grant did in the East. We massed our forces for battles of annihilation, and inflicted casualties through overwhelming firepower. Individual autonomy was not a major feature, and was in many ways, undesirable. Destruction of the enemy force was always paramount.
This post was edited on 6/9/19 at 10:33 pm
Posted on 6/9/19 at 10:28 pm to RD Dawg
quote:
Waffen SS certainly collaborated in the round up of Jews and civilians in Easter Europe.
And so were the Wehrmacht to some degree. Neither faction was responsible for the orders nor were either aware of any policy of extermination. The Waffen-SS were not the same as specialized SS units like the Einsatzgruppen. The SS was a very diverse organization by war's end.
quote:
Honestly,I have no problem with what most of what the Wermacht did but what the Waffen did to US troops is unforgivable.
In one instance when the Germans launched their most desperate campaign of the war? And where there are question marks regarding the circumstances of the incident? You're thinking with emotion. I wonder how your mentality would be in such a circumstance and when the enemy was routinely bombing your cities to smithereens and an entire operation was dependent on speed and luck. From your high horse in 2019 you can condemn men unequivocally who were fighting in a desperate life and death struggle. And against an enemy on the opposite front that our own country immediately became engaged with in an existential struggle for the next 50 years. Our own military saw that some of these men were suitable to be allies after the war, but you and Ralph Wiggum know better I'm sure.
The Waffen-SS ranks swelled with volunteers from across Europe to combat Soviet Bolshevism. Yet the United States allied with the Soviets before shortly after the war deciding that it was one of the most evil forces on Earth. When did they become evil? But you are able to see the shades of grey there, I'm sure...
quote:
I completely understand and IF the Waffen was somewhat comparable to the rest of the Warmacht you might have a point
Your opinion has nothing to do with the validity of my point either way. Plenty of Waffen SS soldiers fought without committing any atrocities and from a position far inferior to that of which their enemies fought.
Posted on 6/9/19 at 11:06 pm to scrooster
I've read a couple of books on SOG.
ETA: I didn't know they existed until recently. I guess I'm late to the party here. This is aimed at Page one talking about the guy this thread was intended to address.
ETA: I didn't know they existed until recently. I guess I'm late to the party here. This is aimed at Page one talking about the guy this thread was intended to address.
This post was edited on 6/9/19 at 11:14 pm
Posted on 6/9/19 at 11:17 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
In one instance when the Germans launched their most desperate campaign of the war? And where there are question marks regarding the circumstances of the incident?
Question marks? Da fuk you talking about ? They continually butchered and killed Americans and women and children.
Posted on 6/9/19 at 11:32 pm to RD Dawg
I can agree with some of what you say but My dad, a WWII vet that saw a lot over there made me think many years ago. He said that the guys on the other side were just taking orders too.
I'm not too interested in entering the fray here. I have read about what Thorne did when he was #1. an officer, #2. Paratrooper, #3. Green Beret and last but certainly not least, he joined the super secret SOG. They took about 50% losses. He became one of those.
I think he paid his dues.
I'm not too interested in entering the fray here. I have read about what Thorne did when he was #1. an officer, #2. Paratrooper, #3. Green Beret and last but certainly not least, he joined the super secret SOG. They took about 50% losses. He became one of those.
I think he paid his dues.
Posted on 6/9/19 at 11:38 pm to RD Dawg
quote:
Question marks? Da fuk you talking about ? They continually butchered and killed Americans and women and children.
Other than Malmedy, what were all these instances where the Waffen-SS supposedly "butchered" Americans? You are very light on the details, high on the hyperbole.
quote:
They continually butchered and killed Americans and women and children.
At Oraour-sur-Glane, a Waffen-SS regiment committed an atrocity against a French village. Under the direction of a single officer. Who was set to be court martialed by the Germans except that he was killed in battle shortly after the event. And in response to repeated French partisan activities that were technically violations of the rules of war. Violations encouraged by the Americans and British.
I'm sorry, but why don't you make your argument clear for us. You are arguing that the members of the Waffen SS were to the man a criminal outfit? An inhumane, savage, immoral organization? Why is it that if you are so knowledgable and passionate about the matter you can't seem to provide any specifics, details, or clarity of thought?
Posted on 6/9/19 at 11:49 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
I'm sorry, but why don't you make your argument clear for us. You are arguing that the members of the Waffen SS were to the man a criminal outfit? An
No I don't,just saying they were far worse Wermacht who were FAR worse than Waffen
Posted on 6/9/19 at 11:56 pm to RD Dawg
quote:
No I don't,just saying they were far worse Wermacht who were FAR worse than Waffen
Uhh, thanks for clearing that up I guess...
Posted on 6/10/19 at 2:11 am to RD Dawg
Actually you don't KNOW anything except for what popular fiction mixed with truth mixed with the realities of war spits out. One part is not deniable: the SS was their elite force like our special forces troops. And the extremes both ways is a reality. No one is defending nor excusing the realities of brutal conflict, reduced to a personal level, result in the worst failings of human beings. And lead to such things as the 75 mile swath of total devastation of Atlanta to Savannah when the war was basically over. Burning the smoke houses and homes of civilians starving the elderly and rape and yes murder of the young. The burning of Columbus 2 weeks after Lee surrendered the Army ending the war. Then the winners write the history both here and overseas.
Also check back with me when you go through having your peaceful country invaded by a massively larger neighbor wanting your land. Raping and murdering and taking whatever pleased them for a prolonged period. Which is the background of this guys experience with the Russians. Also let me know what U.S. national landmaks and buildings are named after your pitiful loud mouth self. How many SF honorary halls of fame have you listed? Have you ever served a day in the military? Much less the worst conflict in world history? And in what elite forces have you contributed. I would bet dollars to donuts the answer is no and none.
One thing has not changed. The rich and the powerful manipulate the young and the vulnerable, poor whites in the south, poor Irish and Germans by the north, poor Finns in Europe to fight for their glory, fame and self aggrandizement.
Also check back with me when you go through having your peaceful country invaded by a massively larger neighbor wanting your land. Raping and murdering and taking whatever pleased them for a prolonged period. Which is the background of this guys experience with the Russians. Also let me know what U.S. national landmaks and buildings are named after your pitiful loud mouth self. How many SF honorary halls of fame have you listed? Have you ever served a day in the military? Much less the worst conflict in world history? And in what elite forces have you contributed. I would bet dollars to donuts the answer is no and none.
One thing has not changed. The rich and the powerful manipulate the young and the vulnerable, poor whites in the south, poor Irish and Germans by the north, poor Finns in Europe to fight for their glory, fame and self aggrandizement.
This post was edited on 6/10/19 at 2:37 am
Posted on 6/10/19 at 2:18 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
d to your other point, the Nazis were really a small party that seized control and you had the brown shirts and SS...
But the majority by far of the German military machine were just regular Germans who "got drafted" so to speak
There was actually an instance where regular German army teamed up with the American army to wipe out an SS unit.
Posted on 6/10/19 at 2:26 am to ChewyDante
quote:
In one instance when the Germans launched their most desperate campaign of the war? And where there are question marks regarding the circumstances of the incident?
What guestion marks?They brutalized women and children along with POW'S.
quote:I'm not Wiggum
Our own military saw that some of these men were suitable to be allies after the war, but you and Ralph Wiggum know better I'm sure.
and I completely respect the Wermacht soldiers stood for but not the SS Waffen... sorry and I know there was multitudes of foriegn conscripts in the latter part of their existence but what they did and stood for wasn't honorable or something any fighting force should be proud of.
Posted on 6/10/19 at 2:41 am to RD Dawg
quote:
What guestion marks?They brutalized women and children along with POW'S.
You've already said this and I already responded. You obviously like to ignore the responses and stick to your script.
quote:
and I completely respect the Wermacht soldiers stood for but not the SS Waffen
The Waffen-SS and other German military branches weren't that far off from one another and often worked together. You're again showing your ignorance.
Posted on 6/10/19 at 2:48 am to ChewyDante
quote:
weren't that far off from one another and often worked together. You're again showing your ignorance.
Yes they were and if you want to sit here and argue about it it's completely idiotic.You really to tell me American troops were better off surrendering to the SS compared to regular troops?
You want me to list the atrocities committed against US troops by them in France?
Posted on 6/10/19 at 2:52 am to jimdog
quote:
Have you ever served a day in the military? Much less the worst conflict in world history? And in what elite forces have you contributed. I would bet dollars to donuts the answer is no and none.
No I haven't you ignorant frick but my Dad and 3 uncle's served in WWII and my oldest brother gave his all in Vietnam...so I know plenty about sacrifice.
Posted on 6/10/19 at 3:09 am to jimdog
He really hated communists
Posted on 6/10/19 at 3:29 am to willymeaux
quote:
He really hated communists
As should everyone.
Posted on 6/10/19 at 3:45 am to RD Dawg
I can't pretend to speak for them, your brave relatives, but your drugstore cowboy response is about what I expected. You attempt to plagiarize their honor as your own to fill your empty spirit is damning. At least I feel better about your previous posts now that you have confirmed what I suspected. You simply know no better. But you are far from alone. A little dick but the woods are full of those as well.
Posted on 6/10/19 at 6:45 am to jimdog
quote:
You attempt to plagiarize their honor as your own to fill your empty spirit is damning
STFU!I didn't attempt to do anything.Just giving you my background.This is an unbelievabley silly argument...you wanna think a military unit who executed Americans is honorable be my guest.
Don't you fricking ever bring up my brother who gave his life for his County and tell me I'm "plagerizing" his honor.You can fricking rot in hell.
GFY you complete POS
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