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Posted on 1/17/14 at 12:21 am to inadaze
quote:
What exactly are you referring to?
The question respecting studies of negative aspects was genuine. I did not have any in particular in mind nor did I reference addiction.
That there are genuine therapeutic benefits to marijuana for certain persons with specific conditions seems beyond debate. Other benefits, loosely termed medical, often deal with persons relating subjective experiences of mental and physical benefits. It seems a large element of the legalization argument is rooted in these personal experiences and opinions. For example:
quote:
If you're talking about addiction, I can't take it seriously. I have used cannabis intermittently since I was 15, and I've never felt anything close to addiction. Over the years, none of my friends have shown addictive-type behavior. I think soft drinks are WAAAY more addictive (and harmful) than cannabis.
With all due respect, this is personal experience and your impressions of your friends' behavior. Anecdotal data is relevant to some extent but it's not science and it's not dispositive.
Much the same may be said for the lengthy insert you provided. I am familiar with Bob Wallace and the fact that drugs, not just marijuana and psychedelics like LSD and Peyote, but alcohol as well "tend to "loosen the boundaries" between conscious and subconscious thoughts." Poe, Faulkner and Hemmingway come to mind in the arena of literature.
quote:
"I think most people take psychedelics as a way to get an extreme change in perspective, comparable to (say) a trip to India (or even the moon), but with (overall) less cost in time, money, and risk. Many people really like novelty, and will risk discomfort or even possible terror to avoid boredom. A smaller but significant number find a psychedelic, taken in an appropriate setting, really helps them "connect" to some kind of spiritual center, and/or shows them aspects of themself they could not otherwise (practically) find out."
This element of this argument is odd. Risk taking to avoid boredom and a willingness to risk discomfort, terror and what else? Who knows. The article notes that the War on Drugs cramped the abilities to research the benefits of psychedelics. Who knows, in their zeal for finding the Grail they might have uncovered problems with psychedelic use. Also odd is the less than subtle shift from marijuana to other psychotropic drugs. This is of course just the problem opponents of legalization worry about. Does a taste of drug induced or drug enhanced self-awareness or expanded consciousness satisfy or does one desire more and a deeper, unexplored and uncharted consciousness? Is simple boredom a justification to risk terror, discomfort or worse? As you believe the problem is with the individual, are you willing to expose weaker individuals to risks that they may not desire or be able to handle?
quote:
A smaller but significant number find a psychedelic, taken in an appropriate setting, really helps them "connect" to some kind of spiritual center
This is not likely to impress the atheists or the Christians.
If accurate, this should prove the dangers of legalization to the atheists. The Christians will look at a portion of Revelation 18:23, "for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived." and run the other way. The passage speaks of end time Babylon and sorcery (pharmakia) is a word which, according to Vines Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words implies ..."the use of drugs, whether simple or potent,...accompanied by incantations and appeals to occult powers...". quote:
I could continue to link stuff on the benefits of psychedelics, but I don't know how open to it you're going to be if you need all this convincing that we don't need government protection from cannabis.
My mind is open but not convinced by your arguments. In addition it seems that you are making no real distinction between marijuana and other psychotropic drugs and are advocating legalization of more than marijuana.
So as not to fly under a false flag, you should know that I am a child of the 60s and had plentiful access to all manner of the drugs in question and drank deeply and broadly from that spring. With apologies to Hendrix, I am experienced. And, not convinced.
However, I greatly appreciate the links your took time to provide me and will be reading all of them with great interest and gusto.
Posted on 1/17/14 at 12:24 am to threeputt
quote:
I hope it fails
quote:
Yes, it is possible here in Louisiana to kill someone while drunk driving and get out in just a couple of years, but then get a life sentence for selling a bag of marijuana.
Awesome bro!
Posted on 1/17/14 at 12:25 am to GumboPot
quote:
Might as well. Practically all the DA's, cops and politicians smoke it.
Might as well because its a rare issue that the majority of left and right agree on.
Posted on 1/17/14 at 12:28 am to ASTL
quote:
Probably just because I will be shopping at Walmart and all the douche kids who go there and loiter around the store after school will now be high as a kite and even worse.
Dude they're already high.
This post was edited on 1/17/14 at 12:28 am
Posted on 1/17/14 at 4:34 am to Mr. Misanthrope
quote:
The question respecting studies of negative aspects was genuine. I did not have any in particular in mind nor did I reference addiction.
My follow-up question was also genuine. I guess you read it as sarcasm? If so, that wasn't the intent. This can be an awkward forum in that way.
I know that you didn't reference addiction. Because I wasn't sure what you were talking about, I just tried to touch on a few of the so-called negative aspects that I commonly hear.
quote:
With all due respect, this is personal experience and your impressions of your friends' behavior. Anecdotal data is relevant to some extent but it's not science and it's not dispositive.
True. I tried to mix it up so that I didn't involve too much anecdotal data in my post. That's specifically why I didn't include any personal experience in the mental and physical benefits part. To support what I've said regarding addiction, here is a recent interview with Dr. Lester Grinspoon:
quote:
I don’t believe it is addictive, and there’s no evidence of it being so. You get addicted to things like alcohol, cigarettes or heroin and many opiate derivatives, but people do not become addicted to marijuana. There are people who use it all day long and that seems to me silly—you get the high in the morning but the rest of the day, there isn’t much. Nevertheless, it’s not an addiction because those people can give it up if they want to and will not suffer any withdrawal effects. Some may get a little irritable or depressed. That has nothing to do with withdrawal symptoms.
But addiction data is so deceptive. When some of these kids go through the criminal justice system, they often have to go into therapy. And the therapist, in order to get reimbursed, has to specify a reimbursable diagnosis and so he puts down cannabis addiction or dependence.
To clearly separate the next quote from the one above, I'll include a video here - Joe Rogan on Hemp, Marijuana and DMT
quote:
not just marijuana and psychedelics like LSD and Peyote, but alcohol as well "tend to "loosen the boundaries" between conscious and subconscious thoughts."
Personally, I don't consider alcohol anywhere near as good as the psychedelics that you've mentioned, but that all depends on the desired effect of the user. Some other good drugs - salvia divinorum, MDMA, psilocybin mushrooms, ibogaine, ayahuasca, DMT, and surely many more that I'm not yet familiar with.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a beer or two every now and then, and I'm aware of health benefits that alcohol can provide. However, in terms of "loosening the boundaries," we're talking about drugs on different sides of the spectrum.
quote:
The article notes that the War on Drugs cramped the abilities to research the benefits of psychedelics. Who knows, in their zeal for finding the Grail they might have uncovered problems with psychedelic use.
If you're curious about this, look up some of Timothy Leary's research, which was shut down by the government. On that note, are you aware of the secret LSD testing that was part of Project MKUltra?
Here are some more links:
Scientists study possible health benefits of LSD and ecstasy
The Heretic
PSYCHEDEMIA - The Psychedelic Conference Documentary
Spiritual Effects of Hallucinogens Persist, John Hopkins Researchers Report
Rick Strassman and Stanislav Grof have also done some fascinating research with psychedelics.
quote:
Also odd is the less than subtle shift from marijuana to other psychotropic drugs. This is of course just the problem opponents of legalization worry about.
Well, I thought it was a related transition, shifting from the article on Silicon Valley to Bob Wallace. But yes, if it's not already obvious, I consider the "other psychotropic drugs" to be far superior to cannabis.
I'll have to stop here for now. I will come back and address the rest of your post later today.
This post was edited on 1/17/14 at 5:43 am
Posted on 1/17/14 at 5:07 am to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
Have you ever bought pot from a dealer?
lol why would anyone ever answer this question?
Posted on 1/17/14 at 5:09 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
Might as well because its a rare issue that the majority of left and right agree on.
HEY. MARK IT DOWN. The first, and probably only, time Tuba and I will ever agree on something.
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:00 am to inadaze
quote:
My follow-up question was also genuine. I guess you read it as sarcasm? If so, that wasn't the intent. This can be an awkward forum in that way
Agreed the forum can get awkward. I did not read sarcasm but appreciate your clarification. No problems on my end.
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:45 am to La Place Mike
quote:
Responsible people would not smoke weed all day every day just like they don't drink all day everyday
I don't drink all day every day because I would be hungover as hell.
With weed you don't have to worry about that being a problem.
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:55 am to The Cow Goes Moo Moo
quote:
With weed you don't have to worry about that being a problem.
Is the hangover the only thing that stops you from being blitzed all day every day?
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:57 am to The Cow Goes Moo Moo
quote:
I don't drink all day every day because I would be hungover as hell.
With weed you don't have to worry about that being a problem.
If someone can be high all day, do their job competently I don't see the problem.
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:59 am to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
Is the hangover the only thing that stops you from being blitzed all day every day?
It's the reason I don't go out and get trashed during the week. No way I'd be able to wake up and go to work hungover.
Posted on 1/17/14 at 12:00 pm to Mr. Misanthrope
quote:
Are there no studies of note that make a case against the use of marijuana?
Yes.
But, you can make a case against anything, including your city water if you really wanted to.
Comes down to how you view the role of government. Do you want a government that protects your rights or do you want a government that controls people for the good of society, whatever that means?
Posted on 1/17/14 at 12:03 pm to The Cow Goes Moo Moo
quote:
No way I'd be able to wake up and go to work hungover.
It's a specialized skill that takes a lot of practice. Usually a couple beers around 9 a.m. does the trick.
Posted on 1/17/14 at 12:19 pm to RogerTheShrubber
bottomline is people that want to smoke weed do so regardless if its legal or not. same goes for every drug.
I dont know anybody that does herion but i can promise if they make it legal tomorrow none of them are going to run out and use herion. people dont use drugs because they are illegal, they dont use them because they dont want to.
so i ask why are we wasting money regulating this? also why is it ok for a women to be pro choice because it is her body adn she can do with it as she pleases, yet that doesnt include using drugs?
I wont use if it is legal or not, im just tired of wasting money on the failed war on drugs.
I dont know anybody that does herion but i can promise if they make it legal tomorrow none of them are going to run out and use herion. people dont use drugs because they are illegal, they dont use them because they dont want to.
so i ask why are we wasting money regulating this? also why is it ok for a women to be pro choice because it is her body adn she can do with it as she pleases, yet that doesnt include using drugs?
I wont use if it is legal or not, im just tired of wasting money on the failed war on drugs.
Posted on 1/17/14 at 12:40 pm to vodkacop
quote:
We would rather give our money to someone we know that was a sure thing instead of getting jacked by dealers. Pot dealers with guns make me a lot more nervous than someone's older brother who's home for the weekend. Probably could have gotten pot from the older brother though lol
Where and when did you grow up?
Posted on 1/17/14 at 11:35 pm to Mr. Misanthrope
quote:
This is of course just the problem opponents of legalization worry about.
In my experience, most of these opponents are misinformed or uninformed.
I do want to make a clear distinction between the types of drugs that I am extolling, and other drugs that I consider more harmful, such as meth, crack, heroin, etc. I don't view these as beneficial drugs in the same way that I do the others I mentioned earlier. It seems to be common to just use "drugs" as a catchall, but I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes in.
The answer to this is education. Not propaganda and fear mongering.
quote:
Does a taste of drug induced or drug enhanced self-awareness or expanded consciousness satisfy or does one desire more and a deeper, unexplored and uncharted consciousness?
Does the taste of alcohol enhanced dulling of reality or liquid courage satisfy or does one desire to go deeper? Now, that was sarcasm. And I don't mean to turn this into a vs. alcohol debate, but alcohol is much more addictive than the drugs that I have been talking about. Actually, LSD has been shown to help with alcohol addiction - LSD "helps alcoholics to give up drinking"
To seriously answer your question, it depends on the individual. I know some people that like to take long breaks (years) in between psychedelic experiences, and others that like to do it more frequently. For most people I know, it's a relatively rare thing. Maybe a few times a year.
quote:
Is simple boredom a justification to risk terror, discomfort or worse?
Personally, I don't experiment with psychedelics out of boredom. I rarely, if ever, feel bored.
I won't speak for anyone else on this, and won't make a judgment on their justification to be free in their decision-making.
Keep in mind, that quote said, "many people." I read that more as an observation than a personal explanation.
quote:
As you believe the problem is with the individual, are you willing to expose weaker individuals to risks that they may not desire or be able to handle?
I wouldn't say "weaker people." What I was saying is that cannabis seems to affect different people in different ways. Some people don't like the way it makes them feel. I've also known some people over the years that (in my opinion) smoked too much, to the point where they neglected other things in their life, and dulled the potential for positive benefits. That is not the fault of the plant.
I also know people that (in my opinion) ingest too much sugar. That doesn't mean we should make sugar illegal!
Yes, I am willing to expose the different types of people in this country to the potential positive and negative experiences that they might have with cannabis. I choose not to decide for them.
quote:
This is not likely to impress the atheists or the Christians. If accurate, this should prove the dangers of legalization to the atheists. The Christians will look at a portion of Revelation 18:23, "for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived." and run the other way. The passage speaks of end time Babylon and sorcery (pharmakia) is a word which, according to Vines Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words implies ..."the use of drugs, whether simple or potent,...accompanied by incantations and appeals to occult powers...".
Now we're getting into deep water, and I'm not sure that this message board is a good place for this conversation, but I'll try to give a decent response.
I don't see how Christians or Atheists being impressed by the spirituality of someone matters from a legal standpoint. I'm not impressed by much of what I've seen in churches across the country, but I don't want to make churches illegal. I'm not impressed by many of the things that gun owners do with their guns, but I don't think we should ban them.
Regarding that Bible verse, if you're going to make an interpretation concerning drugs, why would you not link it to the rampaging corruption in the pharmaceutical industry?
I don't know if you are a Christian, but I'm guessing that you are. Let me say this - I am not a Christian, but I do enjoy the company of many Christians. I like visiting churches and hearing the stories--I just interpret them differently.
For the most part, I find Christians to be kind, warmhearted (albeit narrow-minded) people, and I feel like I can relate to many on a spiritual level. I am a spiritual person and psychedelics are part of spirituality for me. I don't often share that with religious people because I don't think they will understand what I'm talking about, and that is where my problem with Christianity comes in. I don't condemn anyone for their beliefs, but when they act like they have a monopoly on universal truth, and want to legislate morality (be an authoritarian), then I take issue.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti Christians telling me what to do.
The Atheists may not be impressed with spirituality, but they don't typically have the same authoritarian streak that Christians do.
quote:
My mind is open but not convinced by your arguments. In addition it seems that you are making no real distinction between marijuana and other psychotropic drugs and are advocating legalization of more than marijuana.
Well, what are your main reasons for opposing legalization? If you clarify that, I can attempt to shape my arguments to be more suitable/convincing.
For me, the distinction is that cannabis is mildly psychoactive. The other psychedelics mentioned are much more intense, and I think they are better drugs. I'm not saying that everyone needs to use psychedelics, but under the right circumstances, they have tremendous potential for positive benefits. Some people may not like the experience, and I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with them imposing their preference on me.
quote:
So as not to fly under a false flag, you should know that I am a child of the 60s and had plentiful access to all manner of the drugs in question and drank deeply and broadly from that spring. With apologies to Hendrix, I am experienced. And, not convinced.
I'm somewhat surprised by this statement. Did you ever read any of Aldous Huxley's work? Reading his books in college is what really got me interested in psychedelic experimentation. That led me into Stanislav Grof, Timothy Leary, Robert Anton Wilson, Terence McKenna, Alexander Shulgin, Albert Holfmann, Ram Dass, and many others.
Posted on 1/18/14 at 9:08 am to elprez00
Nothing like seeing dead beat lazy non working welfare receiving pants down to your knees dope smoking parasites in public where my children are exposed to this crap. Yep that's what my state needs. 
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