Started By
Message

re: Inverted yield curves predicting a recession

Posted on 8/6/19 at 4:00 pm to
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
134730 posts
Posted on 8/6/19 at 4:00 pm to
quote:

You are russian. I don't believe your work history, unless you are a spy.
Please don't tell anyone. It's a secret...
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
134730 posts
Posted on 8/6/19 at 4:03 pm to
quote:

Also any interested earned is returned to the treasury by the federal reserve.
Close but not quite.

The Fed submits to the Treasury Department whatever its annual profit (they like to call it their "surplus" rather than profit) is from all of its operations including from its clearing operations.

That is a requirement of the law that established the Federal Reserve.
Posted by BeefDawg
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
4747 posts
Posted on 8/6/19 at 4:24 pm to
quote:

No. Letting their bond holdings mature is only part of the process. They DO sell bonds as part of their quantitative tightening. The Fed is not going to wait two decades or more for their 30 year bonds to mature if the decide they need to push down longer term rates. They sell them.
And bonds are not "renewed." They aren't like Certificates of Deposit. The Fed simply doesn't buy securities to replace the matured securities when it is in a tightening mode.
Not sure why you keep spinning this. Maybe you just get off on trying to argue?

Look, the US Gov owed around $4.5 Trillion to the Fed as late as Jan. 2017, and right now they only owe them $2.46 Trillion.

And a reason for part of that is QT.

And guess what, we are paying less interest to the Fed as a result.

quote:

I've seen you make a similar comment before and it's just as incorrect this time as it was the previous time.

The Fed doesn't issue debt. Only the Treasury Department can issue U.S. government debt.
No shite.

I never said the Fed issued debt. I figured you being a self-proclaimed expert you should understand who "they" referred to.

quote:

Yes. I'm very familiar with it. I've worked for the Fed as an independent consultant evaluating their member banks risk management processes. I sat in meetings conducted by Ben Bernanke.

I realize now that you're not well versed in Fed operations. You don't even know the correct terms to use when discussing the Fed's actions which is amusing in light of your comment "I was talking to someone who doesn't understand how things work."
So? And not sure I believe you. WTF are you doing wasting your time on a sports forum if you're some renowned economist?

You are sitting here moving goal posts to try and find a "gotcha" so you can act like an internet badass or something.

Somebody here asked if Quantitative Tightening was us reducing our national debt, and I simply explained it in a way he would understand, that NO, it is not. QT, in this instance, simply reduces the interest liability to the Federal Reserve.

Which is 100% fact. And somehow, you turned that into a pissing contest.

Get over yourself.
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
134730 posts
Posted on 8/6/19 at 4:33 pm to
quote:

And not sure I believe you.


quote:

WTF are you doing wasting your time on a sports forum if you're some renowned economist?

I was trying to enlighten the galactically stupid but he keeps successfully resisting my efforts. (Not an economist, fwiw.)
Posted by BeefDawg
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
4747 posts
Posted on 8/6/19 at 4:33 pm to
quote:

LSURussian
Here is an article that illustrates my take on QT well: LINK

quote:

The Fed is embarking on a new path, a path that started several years with QE (quantitative easing).

QE is the name for the method the Fed uses to ease monetary conditions when interest rates are already zero. Conventional monetary policy calls for interest rate cuts to stimulate growth and inflate asset prices when the economy is in a recession.

What does a central bank do when interest rates are already at zero and you can’t cut them anymore?

One solution is negative interest rates, although the evidence from Japan and Europe indicates that negative rates do not have the same effect as rate cuts from positive levels.

The second solution is to print money!

The Fed does this by buying bonds from the big banks. The banks deliver the bonds to the Fed, and the Fed pays for them with money from thin air. The popular name for this is quantitative easing, or QE, although the Fed’s technical name is long-term asset purchases.

The Fed did QE in three rounds from 2008 to 2013. They gradually tapered new purchases down to zero by 2014. Since then, the Fed has been stuck with $4.5 trillion of bonds that it bought with the printed money.

When the bonds mature, the Fed buys new ones to maintain the size of its balance sheet. But now the Fed wants to “normalize” its balance sheet and get back down to about $2 trillion. They could just sell the bonds, but that would destroy the bond market.

Instead, the Fed will let the old bonds mature, and not buy new ones. That way the money just disappears and the balance sheet shrinks. The new name for this is “quantitative tightening,” or QT.

You’ll be hearing a lot about QT in the months ahead.

QT is now replacing quantitative tightening. The Fed wants to start shrinking its balance sheet by letting the bonds mature, receiving the cash and not reinvesting. That way the balance sheet shrinks and the money just disappears, as I described.

Essentially, the Fed is putting QE in reverse. This is part of the Fed’s effort to get interest rates and its balance sheet back to normal in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis.

Here’s the problem. The Fed spent eight years telling us that QE would “stimulate” the economy, create a “wealth effect,” and save us from depression.

Now they’ll want to say that QT is no big deal and not affect the economy at all. For example, Bill Dudley, President of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, believes that QT can be done gradually and can “run in the background” without disrupting markets.

Really? Don’t believe it.

The Fed’s decision not to buy new bonds will be just as much a form of tightening as raising interest rates. How come it’s stimulative when they print money, but it’s not contractionary when they make money disappear? The argument contains a basic contradiction.

The contradiction leads to two results. One is that the Fed is engaged in happy talk and wants us to believe QT is not contractionary when it is. The other is that QT actually is contractionary, and we’ll be in a recession sooner than later. Unfortunately, both things are true.

The Fed operates on a theory that it’s better to clean-up the mess after an asset bubble bursts than it is to try to deflate the bubble in the first place. This theory is based on an incorrect reading of history and a deficient understanding of the dynamics of systemic risk.

The “clean-up theory” started with a study of the Great Depression by Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz in their book A Monetary History of the United States. The U.S. stock market was clearly in a bubble in 1927 and 1928. But the U.S. was also receiving gold inflows because of a U.S. trade surplus.

Under the monetary standard at the time, the Fed should have eased monetary policy. Instead they tightened policy to deflate the stock market bubble. The tight money policy led to a stock market crash that caused the Great Depression.

Alan Greenspan applied the “clean-up theory” again during the dot.com bubble of 1996-2000. Greenspan could see the bubble as early as 1996 and said so in his “irrational exuberance” speech. But he did nothing to deflate it. Once the bubble burst in 2000, Greenspan supplied easy money to prevent the stock market crash from turning into something worse.

Based on the experiences of 1929 and 2000, the Fed has now embraced the clean-up theory. As a result, the Fed does nothing to stop asset bubbles from growing. But markets do.

So, what happens if the Fed tightens too much too soon in a weak economy and causes a recession before they can normalize?

The first thing they would do is stop QT. The next thing they would do is to cut interest rates. At that point, the Fed is in danger of hitting a zero rate again before the recession is over. That’s what happened in 2008.

What then? Well,the Fed has an answer. It’s back to QE!
The one thing I differ on with this article is that another recession is coming any day now.

We're not in any excessive bubbles right now. National debt is the only thing bearing down on us. But as long as we can keep GDP growth up, the can will get kicked down the road.

Hate to put it that way, but we can probably kick that can for a long damn time, and hopefully until we can figure out how to fix the national debt and begin bringing it down.

Either way, though, there's no recession on the immediate horizon with the policies Trump is running.
This post was edited on 8/6/19 at 4:46 pm
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
134730 posts
Posted on 8/6/19 at 4:44 pm to
quote:

As the Federal Reserve shrinks its balance sheet, it needs to dump treasuries and mortgage securities onto the market or let it mature.
LINK
Posted by BeefDawg
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
4747 posts
Posted on 8/6/19 at 4:47 pm to
quote:

quote:
As the Federal Reserve shrinks its balance sheet, it needs to dump treasuries and mortgage securities onto the market or let it mature.
LINK
Yep. But the QT that's happening in this reality is purely letting debt mature.
This post was edited on 8/6/19 at 4:50 pm
Posted by BeefDawg
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
4747 posts
Posted on 8/6/19 at 4:55 pm to
quote:

LINK

From your link:

quote:

As you may already know, the Federal Reserve earns money from the securities it owns on its balance sheet which amounts to approximately $100 billion per year. As the Federal Reserve unwinds its balance sheet, the interest income on these securities will keep decreasing.
Oh look, precisely what I said happens as a result of QT.
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
59077 posts
Posted on 8/6/19 at 6:20 pm to
quote:

All-time high on CC debt


That depends on what CC stat you are looking at. If it's by total CC debt, then sure 2018 was slightly higher than 2017. If you're looking at average CC debt per household then 2018 was the lowest since 2013.

LINK

quote:

All-time high student loans


While it is at an all-time high, the average college debt is only $27-$28k (which is only $3-$4k more than the 2001 average, which means it's a lower amount when you account for inflation). Only 2% of student loans are for $100k+.

Unless students are getting degrees in Gender Equality Studies, they should be able to begin paying these off once they get their first adult job (the average payment is $200-$300). I can't help but wonder how much impact the number of borrowers plays in (ie: if it's at an all-time high as well then the high debt makes more sense).

quote:

The average family has less than $1000 saved for emergencies


Where are you getting that number? The closest I could find...

quote:

The average American household has $175,510 in savings as of June 2018.

That may sound like a lot, but an average can’t tell the whole story, since millions of families have nothing put away at all while others manage to be super-savers. Indeed, as it turns out, the median American household has only $11,700.



quote:

The lowest rate of homeownership in 25 years


Everything about this point is wrong. The current rate for Q2-2019 is 64.1. This is down from the spike up to 64.8 in Q4-2018 but is still part of a growth pattern ever since the low of 62.9 in Q2-2016.

quote:

96-month car loans


What about them? They aren't new. I think buying a vehicle that's so far out your price range that you need anything more than a 5-year loan is insane but these are actually beneficial to the car companies. The longer the term, the more the borrower is eventually paying.

And no one is forcing loaners to make car loans at such lengthy terms. It's almost as if there's something in it for them...

quote:

Stagnant wage growth


Just as wrong as your housing comment. We have not had a month of year-to-year wage growth that was below 3% since December 2014 with the lowest quartile of workers making the most gains.

LINK

quote:

Home value growth far outpacing wage growth


Again you are wrong. LINK

quote:

The typical U.S. home is worth $226,300, a year-over-year increase of 7.2 percent. This is the smallest annual increase in home values since December 2017, down from 8 percent two months earlier.


House appreciation has decreased but 7.2% is still well more than 3%.

quote:

How anyone can think the current state is sustainable for very long is ludicrous to me.


The state that isn't sustainable is federal deficit spending, but you didn't mention that. The things you mentioned were either marginal or utterly wrong.

quote:

There is a lot more to it than "Chicken Little-ing"


Considering you used scary statistics that are completely wrong, you just proved my point.
This post was edited on 8/6/19 at 6:39 pm
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
39736 posts
Posted on 8/6/19 at 7:05 pm to
quote:

The data I am seeing now is similar to what I was seeing in late 2006 and 2007. It won't be direct subprime that kills us as I said, but the overall debt of the average household.
I'm not following your logic here, would you please be more specific? How exactly will the overall household debt kill us?
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
59077 posts
Posted on 8/6/19 at 7:13 pm to
quote:

I'm not following your logic here, would you please be more specific? How exactly will the overall household debt kill us?



You mean the actual household debt or the stat he posted?
first pageprev pagePage 4 of 4Next pagelast page
refresh

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on X, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookXInstagram