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re: If the Reps had punished the Dems following the Civil War, would this be occurring now?

Posted on 1/11/21 at 10:18 pm to
Posted by HoustonTigerNKaty
Member since Aug 2018
881 posts
Posted on 1/11/21 at 10:18 pm to
quote:

Or... there's hundreds of books... did you go to high school in America?


This is part of the reason we are where are as a soon to be failed nation-state.

With Common Core and contemporary curriculum US History from colonization to Reconstruction is taught in 7th grade— 12 year olds (17 year olds in EBR schools). US History in high school begins at the end of Reconstruction.

Herein lies the truth of why millennials believe the Civil War was a war to free slaves, don’t see the significance of American Revolution or George Washington unequivocally turning over his authority and power as General of Continental Army to the provisional government (why similar revolutions in central and South America failed). Some of the most complex events in the country’s history are taught to kids way too young.
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3491 posts
Posted on 1/11/21 at 11:18 pm to
quote:

What if, instead of sending a pack of greedy carpetbaggers down to purchase and fleece what was left of the South while leaving the power base intact, the Republicans had treated the Democrats to what most ever other rebellious faction in history was treated to?

The playing field leveled. No Jim Crow. So segregation. No Dixiecrats. Thoughts?




Excuse all this, I had a bourbon and I'm sure my typing is awful...

Alright, I couldn't understand exactly what you were saying... because you've got so much scrambled up in here...

And what I am about to say will piss off some of the people on the board. What's taught in high school here in the South is total bullshite... if people didn't go to college and have the right teacher when/if they got around to that level of American History they get a bullshite version imposed on textbooks by people in the 1950s...

The Democrats were the party of the Antebellum South when the Civil War broke out... Lincoln was the first nominee of a new Republican Party, put together from factions of the northern Democrats and Free Soilers and Abolitionists...

Lincoln won, the Democratic party candidate Andrew Johnson lsot and became Vice-President (how they used to do things in those days).

You know what ahppened in the War...

Afterwards: Reconstruction. "Carpetbaggers" were just Northerners that came down South for the Reconstruction effort, so-called because they used suitcases made of carpet... we're taught they were evil, awful monsters... they weren't, Southerners were just pissed off at having lost the War, which had been really fricking ugly and savage by the time it concluded, and didn't like this "occupiers," many of the African American, who came down and were positioned above them. During the period of Reconstruction former slaves were granted rights and employment and a lot of them did pretty well for themselves. Former Confederate foot-soldiers and poor whites were not necessarily treated that great by the occupying US Army. The wealthy Plantation-owning families might have suffered some set-backs but kept their wealth to some degree or the means to make more, even if their political power was greatly diminished. To put it blankly... the South never stopped fighting... they pretty much became terrorists fighting the occupying US Army. Johnson was an obstructionist President who was impeached. Eventually, the South just wore down the North's willingness to bother with any of it. For a modern comparison think of the way Americans now feel about still occupying Afghanistan, and as we pull out the Taliban will just retake it and it reverts right back to how it was... that's what happened. Jim Crow, Segregation, former slaves losing what they had in the South, and actually increasing erosion of the rights of free African Americans in the North. To cap it all off, eventually a Democratic President named Woodrow Wilson, a "progressive" for his time, which unfortunately at that time meant he believed in things like Eugenics and Scientific Racism took office and segregated the United States and its Government and military, stripping African Americans of full rights, even using the threat of military invasion to force New Orleans to racially Segregate, something that had been practically impossible because the original French and Spanish Creole Families who settled it were mixed-race... they just eye-balled it. Wilson also started a program to sterilze "undesirables" out in the rural or mountain areas who were judged to not be of positive reproductive potential. A freaking Monster... and Hitler was greatly influenced by that Eugenics program, which actually continued into the early 70s for various groups (Indigenous Americans).

Southern Democrats usually differed from Northern Democrats. Southern Democrats were usually more Conservative, socially, and focused on things like agriculture... Northern Democrats were usually more Liberal, socially, and focused on factory Labor and urban workforces... what they had in common was an opposition to monopolies and corporations. That was the glue that held them together. The Republican party, after the Civil War, had strangely been hijacked by the Big Business and banker factions of other parties and even former Democrats. The Southern states were mostly single-party states: only Democrats... Republicans weren't welcome... there was a grudge being held. (Continued)

This post was edited on 1/11/21 at 11:44 pm
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3491 posts
Posted on 1/11/21 at 11:23 pm to
Democratic President Truman desegregated the US Military and put some civil rights and voting rights policies (eliminating "poll taxes") in place and the Southern Democrats broke off into the "State's Rights Democratic Party," or "Dixiecrats. They claimed that any Civil Rights policies would make AMerica susceptible to Communism (sound familiar?). For various reasons Dixiecrats like Strom Thurman of North Carolina began to drift to the Republican party, though in the deep south it was still not a common thing.

As the Civil Rights Act was passed effectively ending racial Segregation African Americans left the Republican Party (they had stayed Loyal to the Party of Lincoln if they were in an area where they were even allowed to vote) and became Labor Union-member Democrats... and this pushed some Dixiecrats to flip to being Republicans, as they didn't like the socially Liberal focus the Democratic party was veering to... and they figured out that while Black and White Union members both voted the same way, if you could destroy the Labor Union they voted differently and white voters could be convinced to vote for Republican candidates. That takes us through the 1970s and the campaign to instill "Right To Work" laws that destroyed Unions and changed the electorate. The South still mainly stayed Democratic in registration and flipped between party candidates with the rest of the country... it went for Bill Clinton in 1992 and 1994, then has been reliably Republican overall since 2000 in Presidential elections.

So, as to your question... which I take it to be "would we be having this Problem today if the Republicans had committed a genocide after the Civil War and killed all Democratic white citizens of the South?

Well... uh... that's a hell of a question. Like I said, the Republican party instantly changed after the Civil War into being the party of "business (management, banking, investors)," and that actually breathed new life into the Democratic party in the North to become the party of "Labor," which could co-exist with a Conservative faction in the South that broadly represented Labor and agriculture and farmers and had the shared interests of fighting big companies and their monopolies. Along with the Union busting changing how working/middle-class Southern whites voted, the "Watergate Babies" assumed power in the Democratic party in the late 60s and 70s, and where previously the Democratic party had been full of people who came from Union leadership or small bsuinessman, they were college kids, just like most Republican politicans... the difference being they opposed the War in Vietnam and they were super socially Liberal and focused on social issues and civil rights. What they didn't share with older Democrats was that opposition to Corporations and monopolies... they were mostly pretty well-off kids that didn't come from "hard working-class" households, so they didn't see that as their enemy. And this is a big thing that brings us to our current problem: BOTH PARTIES ARE TOO FOCUSED ON APPEASING THE WEALTHY AND CORPORATIONS, one of them is socially Liberal while the other one is socially Conservative, and that IS NOT DOING WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE FOR MOST AMERICANS.

And I think all that matters is people being able to make a good living and see themselves progress in life for their effort. The rest of it is all bullshite they might not even give a damn about if it wasn't constantly shoved in their faces to distract them from the fact that they're being robbed blind in a lot of ways in this country.

I'm a Democrat... it is hard to actually get the stalwarts - ancient unbelievably wealthy people who been in office way too damned long - to really fight for working people. They give up too easily. Republicans use this Cultural smokescreen of representing the common man, but they don't... Mitch McConnell gets wealthier and wealthier while the state of KY gets poorer and poorer and has a big meth epidemic. I can't say the Democrats really perform that much better... they're too willing to throw up their hands and say "we tried, they won't budge!" And Americans have been so programmed with fear of "SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM" that they fight anybody who would focus on working people.
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3491 posts
Posted on 1/11/21 at 11:27 pm to
So... No! Even if the Union had committed genocide and wiped out the entire white population of the South (the Democrats/Confederacy at the time) we would still have this same basic dynamic because the politics of rural areas are shaped by different things than the politics of urban areas, and as long as we can all be manipulated to be at each other's throats and willing to almost kill each other over some hot button social issue most people will probably never encounter in their lives the spoils of our economy will go more and more to the people on the top and the people in the middle will get less and less until they join the people at the bottom.
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3491 posts
Posted on 1/11/21 at 11:41 pm to
quote:

This is part of the reason we are where are as a soon to be failed nation-state.

With Common Core and contemporary curriculum US History from colonization to Reconstruction is taught in 7th grade— 12 year olds (17 year olds in EBR schools). US History in high school begins at the end of Reconstruction.

Herein lies the truth of why millennials believe the Civil War was a war to free slaves, don’t see the significance of American Revolution or George Washington unequivocally turning over his authority and power as General of Continental Army to the provisional government (why similar revolutions in central and South America failed). Some of the most complex events in the country’s history are taught to kids way too young.


The Civil War was a war to stop the spread of Slavery into the new territories westard because the Plantation owners would've swallowed the country with their wealth and power. Freeing the slaves came later, as a morale/incentive boost at a point when Union Soldiers were starting to feel like "what's the point of this," and it also inspired slaves to rebel and fight for the Union.

But to your point... yeah... they're trying to cram too much in to make all kids college-worthy, but in the process, they're cheating most of them out of firm groundings in reading in elementary school by trying to move them into retaining subject matter before they're strong readers, which is impossible. Too much too young.

But is intelligence the retention of facts to regurgitate at 17/18 in a college placement test or is it the ability to read and retain facts increasingly so you're good at it by the time you get to college?
Posted by Lee B
Member since Dec 2018
3491 posts
Posted on 1/11/21 at 11:49 pm to
quote:

A third of us either wouldn't be here or have different grandfathers/mothers, and we'd all sound like New Yorkers or Ohioans.

Most rebellious factions are slaughtered, and then their entire families are wiped out.


That war, in particular, had heavy casualties from battles, deaths from starvation and disease as a result of the war disrupting everything...

Then there's the joke from some movie:

(Old man to a group of kids in a museum): "Say kids, do you know that more Americans died in the Civil War than any other war?"

"Nooo"

"Do you know why?"


"Noooo"


"Well, there were Americans on both sides, see... so everybody who died was an American... and a lot of people died."
This post was edited on 1/11/21 at 11:50 pm
Posted by OnTheGeaux
Har Tavor
Member since Oct 2009
3067 posts
Posted on 1/12/21 at 1:01 am to
quote:

COmpletely WRONG!!!


There's so much wrong information in this thread it's ridiculous. The story of my ancestors, as told in family bibles and diaries, disputes almost everything presented.

My great-grandfather (8 generations) and his brother (8 gen great-uncle) were one of the First Families of Mississippi and their story disputes all these absolutes being thrown around. They were slave-owners AND abolitionist.

I'm not going to lay it all out, but if anyone is interested, professional storytellers can fill everyone in with these 8 & 12 minute videos linked below.

"If William Faulkner & Tennessee Williams had collaborated... they couldn't have come up with a more complex and sorted plot than Prospect Hill Plantation."
Prospect Hill Plantation | Mississippi Roads | Mississippi Public Broadcasting (YouTube/7:56)

MIssissippi-In-Africa: Prospect Hill Plantation Documentary (YouTube/11:59)

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