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re: How do Catholics handle such a socialist pope these days?
Posted on 10/4/23 at 1:53 pm to Hawgnsincebirth55
Posted on 10/4/23 at 1:53 pm to Hawgnsincebirth55
quote:
but if you’re a true catholic I thought you have to listen to everything he says? I thought the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism was Protestants believe you can talk directly to God but catholics believe you have to go through the papacy? Again, I could just be totally off base here which is why I’m asking
This is not true. There is truth to this. The pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, which almost never happens. It’s happened twice in history. The pope obviously says things all the time and those things matter, but Catholics aren’t beholden to things he says in response to a reporter, for instance. He also publishes encyclicals which are like Supreme Court decisions. They establish precedent, and the next Pope will have to honor that precedent, unless he doesn’t want to at which point he’ll find wiggle room to disagree with it, or overturn it. Your average Catholic does, however, have to seriously consider what encyclicals say, but those encyclicals are only read by the dorkiest of dorks and funnel down to the laity through priests, who ideally would take it into account when giving their homilies (what we call sermons) but generally don’t since the homily is based on the weekly scripture reading so when it does happen, it happens a couple times a year. Again, easily ignored.
As for talking directly to God, Catholics believe they can too. In Catholicism there is the idea that the priests and bishops have inherited their standing directly from the Apostles and academically are better informed than the laity on the teachings of the faith, which are more complicated than just what the Bible says, so there is a tendency towards clericism within the religion that most Protestant churches are able to avoid. Although some of the more charismatic Protestant pastors have followers who hang on their teachings far more closely than any priests does.
Basically it’s a messy hierarchy that formed over 2,000 years, before the rise of the modern economy, and so efficiency is not its strong point
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Posted on 10/4/23 at 1:54 pm to robinette
quote:
You guys are gonna be pissed when you actually read the bible and realize the entire NT is socialism
Yet, Jesus wasn’t very fond of big government or tax collections.
If you look at the Amish, they’re nothing but a socialist structure as well, and they’re not too fond of government either….
This post was edited on 10/4/23 at 3:03 pm
Posted on 10/4/23 at 1:56 pm to Hawgnsincebirth55
quote:There's nothing to deal with. I mean, at worst ones says, "Well, that's unfortunate." It doesn't have any effect on my ability to worship.
but explain how you guys deal with a pope seemingly so anti-faith?
Posted on 10/4/23 at 1:57 pm to robinette
Being a charitable Christian is much different than the government taking from you to give your money to whom they see fit.
Posted on 10/4/23 at 2:00 pm to Hawgnsincebirth55
quote:
Im a Protestant so I have very little understanding of the catholic faith, but explain how you guys deal with a pope seemingly so anti-faith?
As a former Catholic, and from a family of very devout Catholics, all I can say is that ardent Catholics have had it drummed into their heads their entire lives that the RCC holds the keys to their salvation, and even though their own bible assures them over and over that it’s found only in Christ that they find that salvation and hope, the church still has a hold on them to believe that it’s the one true church and if they ever escape it’s hold on them, they won’t make it. I had many well intended Catholic parents growing up try and drum that into me, but God had other plans.
If ever they come to the realization that Christ is the only one in charge of their destination, and begin to put their trust in Him alone for that salvation rather than the RCC, their lives will be changed forever. You’re not going to reason it though. They have to be hungry enough that the hunger overwhelms the years of fear and indoctrination.
Posted on 10/4/23 at 2:08 pm to Hawgnsincebirth55
quote:
but if you’re a true catholic I thought you have to listen to everything he says?
No. That’s a common misconception. Infallibility applies only to doctrine in the catechism - official teachings on faith and morals, not to unofficial comments on faith and morals. A pope’s theological opinions are not infallible.
An infallible pronouncement—whether made by the pope alone or by an ecumenical council—usually is made only when some doctrine has been called into question.
The last time a pope exercised papal infallibility/taught ex cathedra was in 1950 when Pope Pius defined the dogma of the Assumption of Our Lady into Heaven
Posted on 10/4/23 at 2:12 pm to MAADFACTS
I was born and raised a Catholic,went 12 years in Catholic schools,served in Navy in Spain for 2 years and worked in Catholic hospital for 30 years.
The thing that made me quit was the over whelming hypocrisy of Catholic clergy and members of the church.
To be sure,there are hypocrites in every religion but it was endemic amongst Catholics.I saw it quite often in my own family.
Look at Biden and Pelosi.
Quite a few of my old classmates and relatives call theirselves practicing Catholics but they support the Democratic Party.
I’ve called some of them out on what kind of mental gymnastics they engage in to call themselves Catholic,go to communion,etc and yet vote for the party of unrestricted abortions,all of the sexual perversions Dems advocate for,etc.
They become extremely pissed off and refuse to discuss it.
My personal belief in why so many Catholics stay in the Catholic Church is because of the concept of purgatory.I think very few believe they are going to hell,they’ll spend some time in purgatory and then go to heaven.
Baptists believe if one dies with with unrepentant sin on their souls,they go straight to hell,no second chances.Kinda disconcerting to think about it.
The thing that made me quit was the over whelming hypocrisy of Catholic clergy and members of the church.
To be sure,there are hypocrites in every religion but it was endemic amongst Catholics.I saw it quite often in my own family.
Look at Biden and Pelosi.
Quite a few of my old classmates and relatives call theirselves practicing Catholics but they support the Democratic Party.
I’ve called some of them out on what kind of mental gymnastics they engage in to call themselves Catholic,go to communion,etc and yet vote for the party of unrestricted abortions,all of the sexual perversions Dems advocate for,etc.
They become extremely pissed off and refuse to discuss it.
My personal belief in why so many Catholics stay in the Catholic Church is because of the concept of purgatory.I think very few believe they are going to hell,they’ll spend some time in purgatory and then go to heaven.
Baptists believe if one dies with with unrepentant sin on their souls,they go straight to hell,no second chances.Kinda disconcerting to think about it.
Posted on 10/4/23 at 2:24 pm to LSUA 75
quote:
Baptists believe if one dies with with unrepentant sin on their souls,they go straight to hell,no second chances.Kinda disconcerting to think about it.
No, Baptists believe what scripture says, and that’s the only way to eternal life is found in Christ alone, and not what you’ve done or can do to earn salvation, because that’s impossible. It’s the very thing that Christ had against the Pharisees, and there were few who were as knowledgeable or religious as the Pharisees in that day, but they placed things upon the Jews that were not essential to their salvation, and tried to keep the Jews from Christ, as they wanted them to depend upon them, and placing their faith upon Christ alone was counter productive to their control over the people.
Baptists believe that Christ has already done everything for you on the cross, and if you take the example of the thief on his own cross on the side of Christ, it was that man’s belief upon Christ alone that saved him, not anything he’d done or not done.
Posted on 10/4/23 at 2:29 pm to Hawgnsincebirth55
quote:
but if you’re a true catholic I thought you have to listen to everything he says? I thought the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism was Protestants believe you can talk directly to God but catholics believe you have to go through the papacy?
Where do you people learn this stuff?
Posted on 10/4/23 at 2:30 pm to Wally Sparks
quote:
The Church is bigger than any Pope.
Exactly. He is not the first bad Pope The Church has had. There were some in the past that were much, much worse than our current Pontiff. Doesn't excuse Francis for a lot of his actions but it could be much worse.
The only thing we can do is pray to God, and ask him to shed the light of wisdom upon Francis and pray for his soul. We should also be doing the same thing for ourselves as well.
Posted on 10/4/23 at 2:34 pm to robinette
Do you really believe if Jesus was walking the earth today he would support modern day socialist or the Catholic church?
I was raised Baptist but I've not gone to a Baptist church in years. 90% of the religions are not following the Bible and Christ's teaching. I put my faith in him and his words not a church or religion.
I was raised Baptist but I've not gone to a Baptist church in years. 90% of the religions are not following the Bible and Christ's teaching. I put my faith in him and his words not a church or religion.
Posted on 10/4/23 at 2:36 pm to Mike da Tigah
quote:
They have to be hungry enough that the hunger overwhelms the years of fear and indoctrination.
I don’t believe people who aren’t Catholics can’t/don’t go to Heaven. That’s complete nonsense. And on the flip side, many Catholics, Baptists and Presbyterians etc etc etc likely don’t make it to Heaven. You don’t get a pass just because you’re a member of a certain church. I think we can all agree that thinking is pretty elementary.
I do, however, believe that now that I have received the Sacraments, know and understand their meanings, particularly the Eucharist, that I’d be a fool to leave the Church. And I have left for a while here and there when I took issue with things, but I realized that it was humans/certain leaders in the church (some at different levels depending on the time I kind of walked) who my issues were with, not the Church herself, and not the Catechism.
I am not “afraid” to leave, as you said you assume many Catholics are. No one will punish me for leaving. Personally, I need Mass and feel complete with it. & I find the teachings make sense and believe it is truly the church Peter started per Jesus’ request. But that’s just me.
People can argue that they NEED Pilates in order for their necks and backs to feel right (and they may argue which form is the REAL Pilates ;) Same for me with Mass and other teachings of the Church. I need it to feel right.
I don’t however believe people are punished for not being a part of the Catholic Church. No matter what Church I am a member of, like all of humanity, I will have to answer to God for how I have lived my life. Going to Church, following its teachings, and receiving the Body and Blood of Christ—- I’d like to think all have and will help keep me on a good path along the way. It doesn’t have to be much more complicated than that —in my opinion, of course :)
This post was edited on 10/4/23 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 10/4/23 at 2:42 pm to MAADFACTS
Is the pope a man?
Jesus said no man is greater than another. Do we trust Jesus. God is great, we are all earthlings.
It amazes me that human beings will spend their money and entrust their destiny to a man who attempts to supersede Jesus.
Jesus said no man is greater than another. Do we trust Jesus. God is great, we are all earthlings.
It amazes me that human beings will spend their money and entrust their destiny to a man who attempts to supersede Jesus.
Posted on 10/4/23 at 2:48 pm to berrycajun
quote:
I don’t believe people who aren’t Catholics can’t/don’t go to Heaven. That’s complete nonsense. And on the flip side, many Catholics, Baptists and Presbyterians etc etc etc likely don’t make it to Heaven. You don’t get a pass just because you’re a member of a certain church. I think we can all agree that thinking is pretty elementary.
God says nothing about denominational affiliation. He says believe upon Christ and Christ alone. Anyone in any Christian denomination can go to heaven. That’s what God says. Man says different thought, and that’s where the stumbling block comes into effect, when we place anything alongside what Christ has already done to attain salvation for us. That’s exactly what was drilled into our heads as kids, that and a dependence upon the Church, and our works, and yet the Bible clearly says that our works are like filthy rags before God. That’s because it’s not your works that save you. Works are an outward manifestation of God within, not a requirement for salvation. Christ paid it in full at the cross. When we accept His atonement and sacrifice for our sins, it’s as if that blood is placed upon the door of our hearts in much the same way as the blood of corruptible livestock was placed upon the doors of believers at the Passover by faith in God’s word that death would pass them by, except this blood is the only blood that CAN save mankind, that of 100% God and 100% man, to finally join God and man back together again in relationship with one another.
Posted on 10/4/23 at 2:50 pm to berrycajun
Assumption of Our Lady into Heaven
Where is that found in scripture exactly?
Where is that found in scripture exactly?
Posted on 10/4/23 at 3:05 pm to Leotiger725
quote:
Assumption of Our Lady into Heaven Where is that found in scripture exactly?
It’s not, but the Church predated the canon, and so the Church doesn’t tie itself to literal readings of scripture.
It’s why these conversations never go anywhere. Protestants go but the Bible doesn’t say this! And Catholics believe in the Bible plus tradition and doctrine, and since the Protestants don’t believe in the other two, it’s an irreconcilable gap.
Posted on 10/4/23 at 3:33 pm to MAADFACTS
quote:
It’s not, but the Church predated the canon, and so the Church doesn’t tie itself to literal readings of scripture.
And so that’s what the RCC tries to claim in its attempt to tie it to Peter, but it cannot be validated that it existed pre 300 AD before Constantine actually founded the church or the council of Nicaea. Christianity obviously did from the time Christ walked the earth, and the gospels and Pauline epistles were widely circulated amongst the earliest churches scattered about, beginning from only a few decades after His death and resurrection to present day.
Posted on 10/4/23 at 3:41 pm to Leotiger725
quote:
Assumption of Our Lady into Heaven
Where is that found in scripture exactly?
not explicitly but Revelation 12 is about a woman who gives birth than retreats to the desert. Sounds little like Mary in Heaven.
Posted on 10/4/23 at 3:48 pm to Hangover Haven
quote:
The pope is like the president, just because he’s the pope, we don’t have to like him.
While not normally stated in the Nicene creed at Sunday mass, there are additional paragraphs that professors, seminarians, others in authority in the Catholic Church will profess when doing an Oath of Fidelity and profession of faith.
quote:
Moreover, I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act.
We don't say this about the president, nor any political figure. The successor of Peter was given the authority by Jesus to speak on his behalf on earth. While all Protestants and Eastern Orthodox Christians disagree with this, that is the belief of the Church.
Basically we say that the office of the Pope has the authority to speak on faith and morals and his statements must be respected. That doesn't mean we have to agree blindly with everything he says.
Posted on 10/4/23 at 5:11 pm to Mike da Tigah
quote:
And so that’s what the RCC tries to claim in its attempt to tie it to Peter, but it cannot be validated that it existed pre 300 AD before Constantine actually founded the church or the council of Nicaea. Christianity obviously did from the time Christ walked the earth, and the gospels and Pauline epistles were widely circulated amongst the earliest churches scattered about, beginning from only a few decades after His death and resurrection to present day.
That’s why I said canon. The scriptures were written prior to the Council of Nicaea but it was only at the Council that it was decided unequivocally to include the Old Testament, for instance, or Revelations and to exclude the Gnostic gospels which had also been circulating. The church claims to be descended from Peter and the Apostles, so from its point of view, it predated the Council, and the Scriptures are the Scriptures because God guided the Church, and that God continues to guide the Church. Basically the Church applies Matthew 16:18-19 to itself
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