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Message
re: Evangelicals and the GOP
Posted on 4/9/17 at 12:26 pm to volod
Posted on 4/9/17 at 12:26 pm to volod
quote:
I should have been more specific. I meant if there was national election data in which people identified as evangelicals when voting. But your point still stands, because polls do not always reflect the true intentions of their demographics.
And there a re a lot of people who consider themselves to be Christians, and they simply are not.
quote:
Living with your domestic partner before marriage and worrying about an abitrary time limt where the state considers you married.
That is not imposed by Chrsitians. that arbitrary time limit is a state thing.
quote:
Leaving the homosexual marriage issue alone
It is a strictly forbidden lifestyle for Christains. And, until recently it was for society in general....which had nothing to do with Christianity. I say this because homosexuality was taboo among many societies who were not considered Christian....and it is true today.
quote:
Get rid of alimony for either side during divorce settlements.
Again, this is not an issue that has anything to do with Christianity. I can see alimony as a plus in certain situations. When one partner makes a lot more money than the other, or when one cannot make it on their own income. However, this is more of a women's rights issue and would fall closer to the Democratic Party....not Christian or GOP.
quote:
Legalization of Cannabis or other drugs that do not have proven fatality rate for users of over 10%
Just because it doesn't kill you does it mean it is good for you, or your society. My daughter lives outside of Amsterdam.....much of the population there (The Netherlands) hate Amsterdam because of all the drugs, prostitution, addiction and the crime rate that accompanies those.
quote:
I think the problem is that a lot of evangelical-backed lobbyists push for laws which will suit their interests and not the US as a whole. To be fair, Democrats have a lot of this going on as well. So it's more a lobbying control issue than anything else.
So does the tobacco, pharmaceutical, gay, women, retirees, insurance....you name any group and they have a lobby. People can lobby to push what they want....that does not mean that church and state is not separate. I can't think of a single level in which the two are not separate.
quote:
However, I was always taught that God wanted man to come to him on his own accord, otherwise it had no meaning.
People who believe in predestination, sometimes believe this. But Evangelicals read those verses, and there is only one way in which they can be interpreted. It plainly says..."GO.....!" It's pretty specific.
quote:
I dont think doing it at the edge of a sword or the barrel of a gun was the true intent. Its just that Man always forces his will upon others for millenia.
Have not heard of any instances in which a Christian has forced anyone to become a believer at the point of a sword or gun. However, the Muslims are doing this even as we speak. The same Muslims that the Democratic Party are fighting so hard to let in our country en masse.
quote:
I can go into way more historical and religious detail, but I dont want to smother the argument.
Understood. But you would be hard pressed to find those examples in the last 500 years. the Muslims are doing that today....not the Christians. No doubt Christians are not perfect, and have made many mistakes throughout time. But, as for forcing their beliefs on anyone? not in about 500 years.
I hope I have explained things more clearly.
2
Posted on 4/9/17 at 12:35 pm to Sid in Lakeshore
quote:
Is Buddhism a religion? Are Buddhists generally moral people.
Answer: No, Yes.
Dude! Seriously? Buddhism certainly IS a religion! Where id you get that from?
Wait. What is your definition of religion? Maybe I am misunderstanding?
Buddhism is a religion based on the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama, who lived about 25 centuries ago in what is now Nepal and northern India. He came to be called "the Buddha," which means "awakened one," after he experienced a profound realization of the nature of life, death and existence. In English, the Buddha was said to be enlightened, although in Sanskrit it is bodhi, "awakened."
In the centuries following the Buddha's life, Buddhism spread throughout Asia to become one of the dominant religions of the continent.
LINK
Posted on 4/9/17 at 12:37 pm to the808bass
quote:
The epistemological basis for morality resides in religion. You can pretend you have one without it, but it's most likely your religious vestigial tail.
Morality existed for millennia prior to religion, especially of the christian variety.
Posted on 4/9/17 at 12:39 pm to volod
I have friends and family on both sides of the spectrum and from my experience democrats push their beliefs on people a lot harder than republicans.
Posted on 4/9/17 at 12:42 pm to the808bass
quote:
There is no predating religion. Religion isn't limited to bureaucratic structures and books of theology. Faith systems have existed as long as people.
Morality existed pre-Abrahamic religions. Pagans were not immoral.
Posted on 4/9/17 at 12:44 pm to volod
quote:
All I am saying that people should live as they please as long as it doesnt endanger anyone or destroy personal and state property.
This is what TRUE conservatism is all about. Evangelicals have corrupted the conservative party.
Posted on 4/9/17 at 12:46 pm to the808bass
quote:
There is no predating religion. Religion isn't limited to bureaucratic structures and books of theology. Faith systems have existed as long as people.
That's completely speculative. You have no idea when faith structures emerged in prehistoric times. That's what prehistoric means. We don't have a record.
Posted on 4/9/17 at 12:47 pm to volod
quote:
The problem is that the last administration went over the top catering to fringes and the voters responded by deposing them. B
I think it is fair to say this. however, those fringe groups are the groups the Democrats cater to and woo. If they don't cater to those groups they will lose them. If you don't agree with that agenda, then you have a bigger problem with what the Democratic Party has become than what the GOP is.
FTR, I don't particularly believe either party is looking after our best interests.
quote:
I think Trump could still lose the next election, for example, if he doesn't keep up his promises on coal jobs or healthcare reform.
What is telling to me is that if he does lose the next election based upon those issues....that also says a lot about where the Democratic Party sits.
quote:
If I were the GOP, I would really do everything to keep the political promises I made in order to prevent a "flip blue" situation from happening.
I do agree. However, several of his promises have been kept already and they have said that Healthcare is not over. I think they should have waited before doing HealthCare. They rushed into it without a good plan, and because it was rushed they were defeated. Hopefully they learned a lesson and come up with a good plan.
I wouldn't care if they just tweaked the ACA and made it workable. It seems obvious that Obama's signature law is faltering and people want it changed/replaced, though.
Posted on 4/9/17 at 12:49 pm to Machine
quote:
That's completely speculative. You have no idea when faith structures emerged in prehistoric times. That's what prehistoric means. We don't have a record.
That's your argument? You made the statement that morality predated religion, then you turn around and say nobody knows because it was prehistoric?
So....to sum up, you made a statement and don't know, either, right?
You just can't make this stuff up.
This post was edited on 4/9/17 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 4/9/17 at 12:50 pm to volod
quote:The party that elected Donald Trump is too strict on social issues for you?
Im going to be frank, if the GOP was not so strict on social issues, I would probably lean more Republican.
By the way... if you don't like "strict social issues"... try saying your a christian, white, non-ghey, male in the democrat party. You'll find out in hurry, they are VERY strict on "social issues".
This post was edited on 4/9/17 at 12:52 pm
Posted on 4/9/17 at 12:52 pm to TigerBlazer
quote:
Morality existed for millennia prior to religion, especially of the christian variety.
Christianity has nothing to do with it. mind telling me how far in advance morality came before religion?
Do you have any idea when man developed a moral code? Do you have any idea when the first religion came into existence?
If you can't answer those two questions definitively, then you are like the other poster. You don't know.
Posted on 4/9/17 at 12:55 pm to TigerBlazer
quote:
This is what TRUE conservatism is all about. Evangelicals have corrupted the conservative party.
Tell me something. I am curious. What can you do that does not affect anyone else?
Is prostitution a victimless crime? Drugs? Please draw a line for me.
Posted on 4/9/17 at 1:03 pm to DawgsLife
quote:
Do you have any idea when man developed a moral code? Do you have any idea when the first religion came into ex
Can you prove that it didn't? No you can not. Abrahamic religions did not invent morality.
Posted on 4/9/17 at 1:04 pm to TigerBlazer
quote:
All I am saying that people should live as they please as long as it doesnt endanger anyone or destroy personal and state property.
This is what TRUE conservatism is all about. Evangelicals have corrupted the conservative party.
No it isn't. It is what Libertarianism is.
Let me show you what Conservatism is:
(Merrian-Webster, no less)
a : disposition in politics to preserve what is establishedb : a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change; specifically : such a philosophy calling for lower taxes, limited government regulation of business and investing, a strong national defense, and individual financial responsibility for personal needs (as retirement income or health-care coverage)
3
: the tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change religious conservatism cultural conservatism
Mind telling me where Evangelicals have affected this at all?
Posted on 4/9/17 at 1:06 pm to TigerBlazer
quote:
Abrahamic religions did not invent morality.
Who claimed it did? Nobody in this thread.
quote:
Can you prove that it didn't? No you can not.
Dude. You made the statement. I didn't. You show me where morals predated religion. You're the one that said it!
Here was your statement:
Morality existed for millennia prior to religion, especially of the christian variety.
Nobody (But you) said that Abrahamic religions started morals. You do understand that there were religions before Abraham, right?
This post was edited on 4/9/17 at 1:09 pm
Posted on 4/9/17 at 1:19 pm to DawgsLife
quote:
But, as for forcing their beliefs on anyone? not in about 500 years.
Descendants of Native Americans and falsely accused Witches of Salem say "hello".
Posted on 4/9/17 at 1:22 pm to DawgsLife
quote:
That's your argument? You made the statement that morality predated religion, then you turn around and say nobody knows because it was prehistoric? So....to sum up, you made a statement and don't know, either, right? You just can't make this stuff up.
Sorry, predates organized religion. What he was arguing before he changed to unorganized religion.
Better?
Posted on 4/9/17 at 1:36 pm to volod
I don't want to feed the firestorm, but the OP has a legit observation.
Go look back, especially at the 1980's, when the Evangelical movement really took hold in the GOP. There were a lot of people who espoused fiscal conservatism and believed in a strong miliatary (2 areas that are traditionally more Republican), that stayed Democrat due to the Moral Majority and Jerry Falwells (Jim Bakker, etc) of the world.
I'm consistently amazed by the way the parties cater so much to their extreme fringes. No Bible-thumping "you're going to hell if you ___" Evangelical is going to vote Dem any time soon, and no neo-socialist liberal is going to vote Republican. So why not occasionally just ease off on the extreme rhetoric- you don't have to go the other way, but just not make it a primary focus?
I've always been leery of politicians who fixate on "God" too much. If I want that, I go listen to a priest or preacher. I want my elected officials to address the needs of all, even dirty heathens
Of course, my personal beliefs also lead me to be modest and private about my faith, instead of being boastful about it. I understand this isn't always the intent when it's used in politics, but that's the way it comes across to me.
Go look back, especially at the 1980's, when the Evangelical movement really took hold in the GOP. There were a lot of people who espoused fiscal conservatism and believed in a strong miliatary (2 areas that are traditionally more Republican), that stayed Democrat due to the Moral Majority and Jerry Falwells (Jim Bakker, etc) of the world.
I'm consistently amazed by the way the parties cater so much to their extreme fringes. No Bible-thumping "you're going to hell if you ___" Evangelical is going to vote Dem any time soon, and no neo-socialist liberal is going to vote Republican. So why not occasionally just ease off on the extreme rhetoric- you don't have to go the other way, but just not make it a primary focus?
I've always been leery of politicians who fixate on "God" too much. If I want that, I go listen to a priest or preacher. I want my elected officials to address the needs of all, even dirty heathens
Of course, my personal beliefs also lead me to be modest and private about my faith, instead of being boastful about it. I understand this isn't always the intent when it's used in politics, but that's the way it comes across to me.
Posted on 4/9/17 at 1:38 pm to Machine
quote:
Sorry, predates organized religion. What he was arguing before he changed to unorganized religion.
Better?
Not really. I am under the impression that religion is religion. What is the difference in organized and unorganized religion?
I am not ridiculing you....just trying to understand where you are getting your idea from. I have no idea what unorganized religion is.
Posted on 4/9/17 at 1:46 pm to Scoob
quote:
I'm consistently amazed by the way the parties cater so much to their extreme fringes. No Bible-thumping "you're going to hell if you ___" Evangelical is going to vote Dem any time soon,
Now see? this is where we would disagree. I think many African Americans are very immersed in their faith. They vote democrat, because of social issues such as welfare, equal rights, affirmative action, etc. But they are still very much Evangelical in their religious views. They see oppression of the past as evil, and feel if the social agenda of the Democratic Party can be furthered it can help level the playing field a bit. I don't necessarily agree with their view, but I certainly can understand their desperation to achieve equality financially and socially.
quote:
I've always been leery of politicians who fixate on "God" too much.
Actually, so am I. Too often the politician that screams God is caught cheating on his wife, or dabbling in graft and/or corruption. It's bad for sincere Christians. (That can be said about televangelists, too)
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