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Started By
Message
re: Do you believe torture/enhanced interrogation is effective ?
Posted on 12/11/14 at 2:13 pm to Navytiger74
Posted on 12/11/14 at 2:13 pm to Navytiger74
quote:Bingo!
The honest truth is that it does work, and is still morally unjustifiable.
1
Posted on 12/11/14 at 2:18 pm to NC_Tigah
it worked. That's all I need to know
Posted on 12/11/14 at 2:21 pm to mouton
Not in the intel loop.
But since 9-11 someone is doing something right.
But since 9-11 someone is doing something right.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 2:23 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
It probably is to some degree, but the real issue should be "is this something we want to do?"
Who the hell would want to do it? Sometimes you have to do it, and then you have the liberty to regret it later.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 2:39 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Plenty issue psychobabble about many things. NAMBLA is good for kids. Fathers don't matter. The US is a racist country. Spanking is child abuse. We are a rape culture. etc, etc, etc, ============ 2+2=4 The sky is blue. Grass is green. Consequence drives behavior. It is what it is, and what it is is indisputable.
This is seriously your response to tons of current and former CIA and FBI officials and experts on interrogation saying that it is not effective?
Posted on 12/11/14 at 2:42 pm to mouton
Torture? Not really.
Enhanced interrogation? Yes.
(They are not the same thing.)
Enhanced interrogation? Yes.
(They are not the same thing.)
Posted on 12/11/14 at 2:44 pm to mouton
It works. Maybe not in all cases, but in the majority of cases yes.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 3:11 pm to VOR
For starters I am not going to grant you that Water Boarding is torture, we do it to our own Navy Seals and other operatives.
EIT does gain intelligence, to even say it makes ones credibility an issue with me. The CIA director George Bush and Bill Clinton have all stated it has worked. After 9/11 we couldn't use the tried and true methods we knew that worked, but that might have taken weeks or months, we had to ENHANE THE METHODS, hence the name, to get at the information faster.
It is a good thing we didn't have the naïve dummies working at the CIA at the time 9/11 came about.
EIT does gain intelligence, to even say it makes ones credibility an issue with me. The CIA director George Bush and Bill Clinton have all stated it has worked. After 9/11 we couldn't use the tried and true methods we knew that worked, but that might have taken weeks or months, we had to ENHANE THE METHODS, hence the name, to get at the information faster.
It is a good thing we didn't have the naïve dummies working at the CIA at the time 9/11 came about.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 3:14 pm to Iosh
quote:
Iosh
Wasn't responding to you, just posted under you...
Posted on 12/11/14 at 3:33 pm to mouton
quote:No.
Do you believe torture/enhanced interrogation is effective ?
You will never get any important information using torture that you couldn't get through normal interrogation.
In the example before NC_Tigah said that you wouldn't just give your debit card and PIN to someone who asked you on the street, but would give it up under increased pressure. That seems effective if the US government would be interested in stealing PIN numbers. But would you give a rapist your home address and security code for your alarm system when you know your wife is home? Because that is how personal terrorists think about their holy wars.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 3:36 pm to S.E.C. Crazy
quote:Yeah, because then we wouldn't have been able to prevent the ... wait.
It is a good thing we didn't have the naïve dummies working at the CIA at the time 9/11 came about.
What point did you think you were making there?
Posted on 12/11/14 at 3:39 pm to mmcgrath
Your example is extreme.
Not all intel is about a terrorist wife. Not all intel needed by ops may seem important to the one being interrogated. Not all intel gathered seems connected at the time.
Not all being interrogated are ready to die right then.
Really ridiculous of you to give one absolute example of a hard core Jihadi.
Never read much about spies fact or fiction?
Not all intel is about a terrorist wife. Not all intel needed by ops may seem important to the one being interrogated. Not all intel gathered seems connected at the time.
Not all being interrogated are ready to die right then.
Really ridiculous of you to give one absolute example of a hard core Jihadi.
Never read much about spies fact or fiction?
Posted on 12/11/14 at 3:49 pm to goatmilker
quote:Seems to be the type of person everyone here is talking about.
Your example is extreme.
Not all intel is about a terrorist wife. Not all intel needed by ops may seem important to the one being interrogated. Not all intel gathered seems connected at the time.
Not all being interrogated are ready to die right then.
Really ridiculous of you to give one absolute example of a hard core Jihadi.
Never read much about spies fact or fiction?
But I guess when we can't find a suspected terrorist, we might be able to find a brother or cousin instead. So I guess we can waterboard them 50 times or so to see if they really meant it when they told us they don't know where the other guy is.
Is that the scenario you are talking about?
Posted on 12/11/14 at 3:56 pm to mmcgrath
You keep coming up with scenarios that only support your position.
If that makes you feel better what am I to say.
If that makes you feel better what am I to say.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 3:58 pm to mmcgrath
torture sure isn't what it used to be.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 4:01 pm to DelU249
by the way, a lot of people who do this, also have had it done to them as part of training
shite, SERE training is probably 1,0000x worse than waterboarding
in 50 years, we'll probably label atomic sit ups as torture
shite, SERE training is probably 1,0000x worse than waterboarding
in 50 years, we'll probably label atomic sit ups as torture
Posted on 12/11/14 at 4:03 pm to mmcgrath
quote:So extracting information is impossible if it is impossible. Okay, good to know. But eventually in 99.99% of the cases there is a pressure point that overcomes resistance. e.g., In your example, "we will either get the code, or we will set the home on fire and prevent your wife and kids from leaving. We will film them burning alive, and let you view it everyday for the rest of your life." "Now then, the code please." Effectiveness depends on hopelessness except for escalation of negative consequence. Eventually everyone breaks. Effectiveness is inevitable.
But would you give a rapist your home address and security code for your alarm system when you know your wife is home? Because that is how personal terrorists think about their holy wars.
Again, as Navy said, this was never about effectiveness. This was about how far a civilized people will allow their systems to proceed.
Years ago hostages were being taken in the Middle East. Various countries were negotiating in various ways. A USSR diplomat was seized. The lead terrorist made his demands with obligatory threats of harm to the diplomat if demands were not met. He received a package in response. Contained was a photo of his father bloodied and in obvious distress, a note saying "you have 12hrs to release our diplomat or your father loses his other," also contained was one amputated testicle. The diplomat was released. Soviets, and subsequently the Russians were left alone. It worked. It is not what a civilized people does.
Cruelty may work, but civility speaks.
This post was edited on 12/11/14 at 4:10 pm
Posted on 12/11/14 at 4:06 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
But eventually in 99.99% of the cases there is a pressure point that overcomes resistance
no one can deny it...you'd have to be the world's most incredible bad arse if you wouldn't sell out your conspirators to stop someone from, say, castrating you.
everybody breaks, if they know something, they'll talk. problem is, being sure of whether or not they know something.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 4:14 pm to mmcgrath
quote:
Yeah, because then we wouldn't have been able to prevent the ... wait.
Blame Jamie Gorelick, if you want to blame someone. It's easy to get your arse kicked when you tie one hand down and wear a blindfold...really easy.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 4:18 pm to Ace Midnight
I'm no fan of the feds...but this is all bullshite distraction
first the dems were condemning these agencies for not doing enough, for failing...now, they're doing too much
this is how these things have always been done, and when it comes to warfare, spying, etc.
Guantanamo bay is probably the fricking plaza hotel of places an enemy combatant could be detained
shite, I bet its better than san Quentin...are people getting butt fricked at gitmo?
first the dems were condemning these agencies for not doing enough, for failing...now, they're doing too much
this is how these things have always been done, and when it comes to warfare, spying, etc.
Guantanamo bay is probably the fricking plaza hotel of places an enemy combatant could be detained
shite, I bet its better than san Quentin...are people getting butt fricked at gitmo?
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