re: Chromosome Study: All Men Can Be Traced to One Man

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He isn't hid at all to those who have a personal relationship with him and fellowship with him through his Holy Spirit.

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I did, for years. I felt the holy spirit, I saw him working in my life, I saw answers to prayers, etc. Until after a long process of self-evaluation and religious study I realized it was purely a psychological experience. The same psychological experience that leads Muslims to believe they are right and Christians are wrong.

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I did, for years. I felt the holy spirit, I saw him working in my life, I saw answers to prayers, etc. Until after a long process of self-evaluation and religious study I realized it was purely a psychological experience. The same psychological experience that leads Muslims to believe they are right and Christians are wrong.

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Well if God and scripture are indeed real, we would have to conclude that you fall among those that Jesus spoke about in the parable of the seeds. Some fell on rocky ground and the sun burned up. Others started to produce fruit but the cares of the world choked them out. This would also apply to me if I fell away.
I guess the only 100% way we will know is when we die.

Nothing happened in my life to bring about the change, I just started questioning a few things. A few things became a lot of things, and before I knew it I had thrown out the bathwater to find there was no baby after all.

All along the way, I prayed for faith, for answers, for truth. Nothing ever came. Once I stopped trying to look for God in every little thing, I realized I had been deluding myself.

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There may be a God, but to say we will never reach a point where our knowledge base makes him completely unnecessary is denying the trend. We've already removed the vast majority of mysteries which people once accredited to God. Lightening, disease, natural disasters, eclipses, the sun and stars, etc.

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Ok on my phone hard to respond the way I want but

I don't remember claiming that we will never reach a point where God is unnecessary. What I argue is that we can't exist without a primary cause who I believe to be God.

As I said in another thread the universe needs a sufficient reason to exist. If you don't understand this not sure i can show you want I want to show you.

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Truly, the last real "God" mystery is the first nanosecond of existence. We've already shown to an extent that morality is genetic, heritable and evolved along with all other cognitive functions and capacities. The "God is necessary for morality" argument doesnt hold much water anymore, especially given that many people dont believe in absolute morality anyway.

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Morality is genetic? Please explain

Also relativistic is problematic there are no guiding principles other than personal opinion

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Also, by definition philosophical arguments cannot prove anything. They can only reason out logical conclusions.

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What?

Philosohia

Philo= study of

Sophia= knowledge

How is that not provable are you saying we can't have knowledge.

But a basic concept very provable is the principle of non contradiction.

Also logic by definition is provable. If a statement is valid and logically follows the conclusion must be true.

Example

If it rains
The road is wet
It is raining
The road must be wet.
Another one
I think
Therefore I exist
Or this
Every bachelor is I married

All of these very basic logic which is philosophy is based on as you claim, is provable.

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I don't remember claiming that we will never reach a point where God is unnecessary. What I argue is that we can't exist without a primary cause who I believe to be God.

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Some of the greatest philosophers of all-time were atheists or indifferent towards the divine.

And even if this were true, if says nothing about which God is real among the thousands we've managed to come up with.

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As I said in another thread the universe needs a sufficient reason to exist.

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The very fact that it exists is sufficient reason for it's existence.

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Morality is genetic? Please explain

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Most higher order mammals exhibit primitive forms of morality, and dolphins exhibit remarkably advanced moral codes among groups. Things like "adopting" the young of deceased peers, risking their lives for each, monogamy, parents disciplining their young and casting out those who break their "codes" or harm others in the group.

Let's take the most basic moral, don't kill others like me. This is seen across much of the animal kingdom, especially in species that rely on others of the same species. Trying to kill others like you is deleterious for yourself (they will try and kill you in defense) to the group (less members for protection and work) and to the social fabric in the case of higher order animals. A primate who was inclined to kill others in his group will likely either be killed or cast out and thus make him less likely to procreate.

Our morality is just a more refined version of the social "codes" animals use to survive. Our society relies on morality to function, we wouldn't be here as a species without it. It is necessary for our existence.

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Also relativistic is problematic there are no guiding principles other than personal opinion

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Not true. Morality is what the society in question says it is.

How you can look at human history and not realize morality is relative is beyond me. Even "don't kill others" has meant wildly different things to different groups in different eras.

For instance, in America we don't even debate whether or not execution should be humane or not but rather should we execute people at all. However, in medieval Europe execution was a given and the issue was how to make it as painful and deterrent as possible. We would consider them immoral, they didn't give it a second thought.

In the middle east, they marry their daughters off as young as age 8-9. We would call that horribly immoral, they call in Tuesday.

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How is that not provable are you saying we can't have knowledge.

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Philosophy relies logic, not physical evidence. "Proof" cannot be acquired merely through thought.

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If it rains
The road is wet
It is raining
The road must be wet.
Another one
I think
Therefore I exist
Or this
Every bachelor is I married

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This isn't philosophy, this is deductive reasoning.

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The very fact that it exists is sufficient reason for it's existence.

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Another dumb "New Atheist"

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Some of the greatest philosophers of all-time were atheists or indifferent towards the divine.

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so you don't count plato aristotle Aquinas Augustine, Descares, Kant, Hume in philosophy. They all believe in a God.

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The very fact that it exists is sufficient reason for it's existence.

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that is absurd the universe changes there must be a reason it changes that can't exist in itself. Also you have to claim that the universe is eternal in order for that to be the case.

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Most higher order mammals exhibit primitive forms of morality, and dolphins exhibit remarkably advanced moral codes among groups. Things like "adopting" the young of deceased peers, risking their lives for each, monogamy, parents disciplining their young and casting out those who break their "codes" or harm others in the group.

Let's take the most basic moral, don't kill others like me. This is seen across much of the animal kingdom, especially in species that rely on others of the same species. Trying to kill others like you is deleterious for yourself (they will try and kill you in defense) to the group (less members for protection and work) and to the social fabric in the case of higher order animals. A primate who was inclined to kill others in his group will likely either be killed or cast out and thus make him less likely to procreate.

Our morality is just a more refined version of the social "codes" animals use to survive. Our society relies on morality to function, we wouldn't be here as a species without it. It is necessary for our existence.

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ok I can believe most of that

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Not true. Morality is what the society in question says it is.

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the society of the nazi's says Jews aren't human and it is ok to kill them? Does that make it correct?

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How you can look at human history and not realize morality is relative is beyond me. Even "don't kill others" has meant wildly different things to different groups in different eras.

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Just because different cultures have different moralities doesn't prove that relativistic morality is correct all that proves is that moral questions are complex and people answer them in different ways but I would argue that one morality guides the all without that horrible things can happen in a society, abortion, genocide, slavery, sex trafficking and as long as a society accepts it then it is ok.

These issues doesn't prove that morality is relativistic it only proves that people have a faulty view of morality. Slavery is wrong because human beings have a dignity have rights, without these, slavery, murder, tortured can be justified.

Again relativistic morality really only comes down to majority opinion rather than guiding principles.

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Philosophy relies logic, not physical evidence. "Proof" cannot be acquired merely through thought.

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yes it can it is called a priori arguments and they are very provable. Principle of non contradiction which is given to us through philosophy is very provable and needs to evidence to be prove.

Can I prove that a bachelor is single?

yes the definition single in contained in the word bachelor.


you exist don't you?

I can prove that without using ANY physical evidence.

But what is knowledge? Why must we have physical evidence to have knowledge

How do you know the world out there is a reality? Can you just assume or is it possible that our mind tricks us our mind deceives us and shows us something that isn't real. The ONLY way you can even have knowledge in science is through philosophical discussion. Philosophy deals with FUNDAMENTAL questions.

Why do I exist
How do I know
Where do I come from
why is there knowledge at all
is there something more than just my material existence.
what is beauty
what is truth.

all of these questions have been debated for centuries and are very provable.

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This isn't philosophy, this is deductive reasoning.

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deductive reasoning is logic which is philosophy.

So you admit that morality is subject to opinion, but everyone else's is wrong and yours is right?

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So you admit that morality is subject to opinion, but everyone else's is wrong and yours is right?

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no there is one truth that morality is based on, sometimes people have incorrect views of the truth or only portions of the idea of the truth.

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so you don't count plato aristotle Aquinas Augustine, Descares, Kant, Hume in philosophy. They all believe in a God.

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I said SOME. SOME meaning not all.

However, Plato, Aristotle, Kant and Hume did not hold traditional Judeo-Christian views of God and are almost certainly in Hell according to christian orthodoxy. Even Descartes would be in hell as a heretic according to some hardcore traditional catholics.

It's actually funny you mention Hume as he was one of the biggest proponents of skepticism in history and scoffed at the notion of a personal God, calling it "inherently illogical". He also argued against the argument from design, meaning he didn't see creation as sufficient evidence in and of itself for God.

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that is absurd the universe changes there must be a reason it changes that can't exist in itself.

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Why? Give me a reason why.

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Also you have to claim that the universe is eternal in order for that to be the case.

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A large portion of the world's leading astronomers and physicists believe either that it is eternal or it spontaneously came from "nothing". Lawerence Krauss even wrote a book about it.

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the society of the nazi's says Jews aren't human and it is ok to kill them? Does that make it correct?

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No, because the larger global society said it wasn't. The world as a whole deemed it morally wrong and worked together to rectify it. Now if most people agreed that killing jews was ok then it would be, just like if most people agree with capital punishment it is morally acceptable.

Morally is defined by the society that works to enforce it. Nothing is ever "inherently" immoral because the universe doesn't care about morality. Morals aren't like the laws of physics.

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Slavery is wrong because human beings have a dignity have rights, without these, slavery, murder, tortured can be justified.

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The majority of humans in history believed slavery was moral, including most slaves. It was just the way things were. People lived and died as slaves and often thought it was simply "their place".

Slavery in many instances was viewed as a kindness, giving people food and shelter who would died otherwise.

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Again relativistic morality really only comes down to majority opinion rather than guiding principles.

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Exactly.