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re: We are now 162 years removed from the first day of the Battle of Gettysburg...
Posted on 7/2/25 at 4:08 pm to ned nederlander
Posted on 7/2/25 at 4:08 pm to ned nederlander
quote:
It really is a shame Sherman isn’t a more broadly celebrated American hero. He and Grant were modern military thinkers.
And I beat the Battle of Shiloh to death along with it’s what ifs and consequences..
But damn… Sherman was a foot away from fatal headshot in the opening hours of the battle of Shiloh. His assistant next to him did take a fatal hit.
And Grant was right in the mix running ammunition and giving orders. One stop was in the hornets nest where there was a blizzard of fire.
Two of the union’s eventual hero’s were very close to being wiped out early in the war.
Posted on 7/2/25 at 4:17 pm to Harry Boutte
quote:
He did understand that. Lee was an engineer, his genius was in defense and defensive works, but the war was dragging on beyond what the resources of the South could endure. Lee had to take the fight to the North.
Have to agree with this. Similar to Japan in WW2; Lee, like them, needed a decisive victory or set of victories to hopefully bring about a negotiated peace before being beaten by superior numbers and logistics.
I don't know if Longstreet's defensive offense suggestion of moving around the Union left flank to find good ground between the Union army and Washington would have worked.
Posted on 7/2/25 at 4:35 pm to WAC13
quote:
Lee showed his true tactical genius at The Wilderness
I don't think there was any tactical genius to be found here at all. Longstreet saved his arse on the second day of the battle by arriving just in the nick of time as A.P. Hill's Corps was in the process of being routed from the field by Grant's big push that morning. It was also very difficult to execute any kind of tactical offensive due to the fact that the woods were so thick. The formations would fall apart before any one side could truly drive home an attack. Both Grant and Lee found this out the hard way.
quote:
Day 3 of Cold Harbor was a bloodbath of epic proportions
There is a lot of myth making about that assault. While it is true that Grant regretted ordering that assault to his dying day, what's also true is that the casualties were nowhere near as severe as people like to make them out to be. The Army of the Potomac lost 6,000 casualties for the entire day, not the 6,000 in 30 minutes that is often quoted. In contrast, Lee lost over 7,000 men in just 60 minutes in Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg.
This post was edited on 7/2/25 at 4:37 pm
Posted on 7/2/25 at 6:20 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
While it is true that Grant regretted ordering that assault to his dying day, what's also true is that the casualties were nowhere near as severe as people like to make them out to be.
I think part of it was that it was so late in the war to be losing so many men in what was by then clearly a losing effort on the part of the South. But also that the assault wasn't really necessary after such brilliant maneuvering leading up to it. Grant should have simply kept trying to turn Lee's right into a death spiral ending in totally cutting off supplies to Richmond. He didn't have to try for Richmond at Cold Harbor.
Posted on 7/2/25 at 6:50 pm to Harry Boutte
With hindsight I think this is an easy argument to make. However, you have to put yourself in Grant’s shoes in June 1864. He has pushed Lee back to the very gates of Richmond, inflicting heavy casualties in the process. Unlike his predecessor McClellan, he knows the South has a finite number of men and he also knows those men are exhausted. On top of all that, the Confederate army had entrenched in front of the Chickahominy River, which in 1864 was more of a swamp than a river - thus giving them no viable line of retreat should a sudden breakthrough occur. And the Army of the Potomac had recently been reinforced by Baldy Smith’s 18th Corps to boot.
With all of this in mind, Grant envisioned an attack by the entire army. He believed such an attack would result in a sudden breakthrough. With nowhere to retreat, Lee would be forced to surrender. Unfortunately for the Union, the plan failed.
With all of this in mind, Grant envisioned an attack by the entire army. He believed such an attack would result in a sudden breakthrough. With nowhere to retreat, Lee would be forced to surrender. Unfortunately for the Union, the plan failed.
Posted on 7/2/25 at 7:12 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
With hindsight I think this is an easy argument to make. However, you have to put yourself in Grant’s shoes in June 1864.
I think I am putting myself in Grant's shoes, and that's why I think he says he regretted it so much. He knew when the decision to make the assault was made, and he knew what he was weighing. His lines were getting longer, Lee's lines were getting shorter, it was just a matter of time. He miscalculated thinking Lee's army was demoralized, and ready for surrender. That's what he probably knew he knew better, but he simply hoped one big push might end it sooner.
But, in the end, he knew better. That, imo, is the basis for his regret.
quote:
Unfortunately for the Union, the plan [frontal assault against entrenched, veteran soldiers] failed.
...yet again. :shockedface:
Posted on 7/2/25 at 7:55 pm to Champagne
Much of the ire directed at Longstreet came from the fact that he became a Republican after the war and put down a white insurrection in New Orleans.
I would imagine some of the facts began to change after those incidents.
I would imagine some of the facts began to change after those incidents.
Posted on 7/2/25 at 8:48 pm to Harry Boutte
quote:
I think I am putting myself in Grant's shoes
After the fact. You need to be in the moment with him. He miscalculated to be sure, but he had been reinforced with fresh troops while Lee had not. Lee also had his back to a swamp with no ideal route of retreat should things go south for him. It was a high risk, high reward assault that any other veteran commander would have made had they been presented with a similar set of circumstances
quote:
Unfortunately for the Union, the plan [frontal assault against entrenched, veteran soldiers] failed.
Which is why the original plan called for the entire army to go forward. Instead, due to poor coordination between the Army of the Potomac's corps commanders, and the sheer exhaustion of the Union's own soldiers, the attacks were piecemeal and uncoordinated. Many units never attacked at all. That, however, was not on Grant but Meade. In fact, Meade boasted to his wife in a letter home shortly after the fact that it was he who planned the ill-fated June 3 assault.
This post was edited on 7/2/25 at 8:50 pm
Posted on 7/3/25 at 9:35 am to DakIsNoLB
quote:
I don't know if Longstreet's defensive offense suggestion of moving around the Union left flank to find good ground between the Union army and Washington would have worked.
I re-read the beginning of Coddington's book last night, and, the alternative strategy that you suggest was a legit alternative, provided that the Union military forces inside the Wash DC Fortress could have been effectively masked with enough Confederate units to keep Wash DC from attacking Lee's main body from the rear while the Union Army of the Potomac attacked from the front. Lee may have been a risk-taker, but he declined to take this risk.
Lee chose to invade through the Shenandoah Valley. Historical evidence is there to allow us to conclude that, when he first began to think about invasion in May, 1863, he did anticipate a clash with the whole Union Army near Gettysburg. We also have evidence to show that Lee's intent was to catch the Union Army over-extended, so that at least two corps of Lee's Army would be concentrated enough to jump on and destroy a Union corps or two before the whole Union Army could stop it.
THAT was a great plan. But Lee's execution of that plan was so very faulty that it failed. Lee was so very secretive about what we today call his "Commander's Intent". Lee never clearly and thoroughly briefed his main subordinates on what his plan was and how the main subordinates fit in his plan. That's why we saw how his fragmentary and incomplete written orders to his main subordinates failed to give them a clear mission.
Lee was secretive. That explains why he refrained from distributing complete and clear written orders. But, Lee took operational security too far. He could have physically met with all three of his corps commanders and with JEB Stuart. He could have rolled out the map and stuck pins in the map to brief these four main subordinates on his Commander's Intent, the Objective(s) and his Mission Orders to these subordinates. He could have ensured that all of them knew what they were doing and why. There's no evidence that he did such a thing. Yes, the evidence shows that he did sit down with Longstreet and have such a "War Conference", but, not with JEB Stuart, Ewell or AP Hill. Was Lee so very concerned about Operational Security that he decided to withhold complete information from all except one of his main subordinates? This was a great mistake.
Lee himself was the one who over-ruled President Davis and insisted on an invasion of the North in 1863. Davis wanted to send a chunk of Lee's Army over to the West in order to keep Grant from taking Vicksburg and Port Hudson. Lee overruled him. Davis let Lee have his way. I make this point in order to emphasize that Lee himself accepted full responsibility for strategy-making and execution of the entire Confederate Nation's war-fighting for 1863. When Lee took this responsibility out of President Davis's hands, then Lee himself must be judged on whether that Confederate Grand Strategy for 1863 was sound.
It was sound. But, Lee is to blame for the failure to execute the strategy/plan effectively. His failure to perform his duties of "Commander, Army of Northern Virginia" is to blame for what happened. Lee failed to clearly express his Commander's Intent and he failed to issue clear and complete Mission Orders to his four main subordinates are the reasons why 1863 was a Victory for the Union.
This post was edited on 7/3/25 at 9:40 am
Posted on 7/3/25 at 9:40 am to Champagne
A very good post which lays out Lee's command flaws during the Gettysburg campaign. Even after the battle had commenced he failed to have a council of war with his principle commanders. Meade did this every single night and sometimes multiple times a day throughout the engagement. When Lee drew up his battle plans for July 2, he met with each of his three corps commanders individually and not as a group. The same for July 3. As a result, none of them really had a firm idea of what the other was doing nor completely understood Lee's thinking. Contrast that with Meade and his commanders who had a pretty good understanding of what their commanding general was thinking and what their counterparts were supposed to be doing.
Posted on 7/3/25 at 9:42 am to RollTide1987
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I was blaming Grant for being wrong about the offensive, just that I think I can understand his regret - and that it had more to do with the timing in the war than with the absolute numbers of casualties, which, while high, weren't as high as some other days as you pointed out.
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