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re: Was the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki necessary?

Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:28 pm to
Posted by Draconian Sanctions
Markey's bar
Member since Oct 2008
86749 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:28 pm to
quote:

Yes, because football is on the same level with decisions made during a global war.


so thought exercises are allowed until they aren't?

At what point are they not allowed anymore? So far you've said no to engineering and war but yes to football.
This post was edited on 4/17/18 at 4:29 pm
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
90110 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:29 pm to
quote:

The point is that we could have easily ended the Pacific Theater without more American casualties and without dropping the bombs had we wanted to.


And in all likelihood this thread would ask why we continued to bomb Japanese cities when we could have explored other options for surrender.

We could have starved them to death, but the death of 80k people didn't seem to affect them much.

There may have been other ways, but it's naïve to act like they would have been any more humane and/or cost less human capital than the bombs. We'll never know.
Posted by CptRusty
Basket of Deplorables
Member since Aug 2011
11740 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:30 pm to
Stop trying to change the subject.

Link up where Japan was ready to accept the following prior to the dropping of the A-Bombs:

quote:

The role of the Emperor as head of the State Shinto religion was exploited during the war, creating an Imperial cult that led to kamikaze bombers and other fanaticism. This in turn led to the requirement in the Potsdam Declaration for the elimination "for all time [of] the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest". In State Shinto, the Emperor was believed to be a Arahitogami (a living god). Following Japan's surrender, the Allies issued the Shinto Directive separating church and state within Japan. Current constitution Edit The constitution provides for a parliamentary system of government and guarantees certain fundamental rights. Under its terms, the Emperor of Japan is "the symbol of the State and of the unity of the people" and exercises a purely ceremonial role without the possession of sovereignty. The constitution, also known as the "Constitution of Japan" (????? Nihonkoku-Kenpo, formerly written ????? (same pronunciation)), "Postwar Constitution" (???? Sengo-Kenpo) or the "Peace Constitution" (???? Heiwa-Kenpo), was drawn up under the Allied occupation that followed World War II and was intended to replace Japan's previous militaristic and quasi-absolute monarchy system with a form of liberal democracy. Currently, it is a rigid document and no subsequent amendment has been made to it since its adoption.
Posted by OptionRight
Down da skreet
Member since Sep 2010
826 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:31 pm to
April 16, 2018

Dear Diary, tomorrow I plan to troll the OT, it is neatly disguised as an educated arguement that I have collected, complete with links and everything. I will have those knuckle dragging bafoons fighting mad by 5pm, I’m hoping for at least 20 pages. I’m code naming it “Pearl Harbor”
Posted by Tigertown in ATL
Georgia foothills
Member since Sep 2009
30111 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:32 pm to
quote:

Dwight D. Eisenhower,future president of the United States


Politician.
Can't trust anything he says.
Posted by Centinel
Idaho
Member since Sep 2016
44052 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:33 pm to
quote:

so thought exercises are allowed until they aren't?



Just consider this thread the global equivalent of proving the REC exists and is why Alabama is actually successful.

Ya, you can have a thought exercise on it but you're conspiracy theory moron to do so.

Ockham's Razor.
Posted by Havoc
Member since Nov 2015
34600 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:34 pm to
So the United States Strategic Bombing Survey report that you linked appears to be pure hindsight regarding the necessity of the atomic bombings unless I'm missing something.
Posted by Draconian Sanctions
Markey's bar
Member since Oct 2008
86749 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:34 pm to
quote:

Stop trying to change the subject.


i'm capable of having more than one conversation at the same time

LINK

quote:

The second alternative was accepting a conditional surrender by Japan. The United States knew from intercepted communications that the Japanese were most concerned that Emperor Hirohito not be treated as a war criminal. The “emperor clause” was the final obstacle to Japan’s capitulation. (President Franklin Roosevelt had insisted upon unconditional surrender, and Truman reiterated that demand after Roosevelt’s death in mid-April 1945.)

Although the United States ultimately got Japan’s unconditional surrender, the emperor clause was, in effect, granted after the fact. “I have no desire whatever to debase [Hirohito] in the eyes of his own people,” Gen. Douglas MacArthur, supreme commander of the Allied powers in Japan after the war, assured Tokyo’s diplomats following the surrender.


Your conditional vs unconditional thing is meaningless as what they offered relative to the office of the emperor is what we accepted after the fact.
Posted by Morty
Member since Feb 2018
2252 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:35 pm to
Nagasaki is more debateable.
Posted by CptRusty
Basket of Deplorables
Member since Aug 2011
11740 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:38 pm to
quote:

The second alternative was accepting a conditional surrender by Japan.


We said no, then we implemented the Shinto Directive, while leaving the emperor as a figure head.

quote:

Your conditional vs unconditional thing is meaningless as what they offered relative to the office of the emperor is what we accepted after the fact.


Nope. The emperor became what we said he could become, not the other way around.
We demanded unconditional surrender, they did not accept until the A-Bombs were dropped.

This may seem like a trivial point of contention to you, but apparently to the Japanese it was worth several hundred thousand civilian lives.
Posted by Draconian Sanctions
Markey's bar
Member since Oct 2008
86749 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:40 pm to
quote:

The emperor became what we said he could become, not the other way around.


yet we accepted what the request was after the bombs. if it was such a big deal why not keep going and remove the emperor entirely?
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
90110 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:40 pm to
People question the atomic bombs but they never discuss the Bombing of Tokyo with Operation Meetinghouse, the single most destructive bombing raid in history. 100,000 civilian deaths and Japan fought on for another 6 months.

They simply didn't want to quit. Hell, the Japanese military attempted a coup d'état even after Hirohito agreed to surrender.
Posted by celltech1981
Member since Jul 2014
8139 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:43 pm to
Maybe we didn't need to drop it in hindsight but one of the biggest obstacles to understanding history is that we know what happened after the players decisions. I think that Truman was in a rough spot and after years of war he would have been lynched had he not dropped it. Either way, a lot of civilian casualties came about because of it. It isn't something that should be taken lightly. It seems that a lot of folks on this board like that thousands of non combatants lost their lives.
This post was edited on 4/17/18 at 4:47 pm
Posted by OptionRight
Down da skreet
Member since Sep 2010
826 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:43 pm to
I will tell you like my boy told Hoyt in training day, this is chess, this ain’t checkers....

Your point being the US did not come clean and has blood on their hands regarding dropping two nukes? Is this your point? Ok, thank you for your input. I’m sure we can sit and visit this and go round and round with arguments and counter arguments but the fact remains, ain’t nobody fricking with us much until 9/11....right? If if I’m keeping count, we putting in work on their asses supplying all expense paid trips to 72 virgin land....so, what’s your point? The bully on the block punched the mouthbreathing idiot unfairly across the pond? Ok, mission accomplished.
Posted by CptRusty
Basket of Deplorables
Member since Aug 2011
11740 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:43 pm to
quote:

if it was such a big deal why not keep going and remove the emperor entirely?


Because we did not accept a conditional surrender. The fact that we showed a modicum of grace in victory doesn't change the fact that the Japanese were obstinate to the point of suicide in not accepting defeat when it was already a foregone conclusion, even by their own calculations.

If you want to look for someone to blame for the dropping of the atomic bombs, you need to look at the Japanese leadership.
This post was edited on 4/17/18 at 4:45 pm
Posted by WaWaWeeWa
Member since Oct 2015
15714 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:44 pm to
Ok I read all of you links. A couple of wiki links, a britannica article on the battle of leyte gulf, and a gem of an article from the nation.com that ends like this...

quote:

Even now, for instance, we see how difficult it is for the average US citizen to come to terms with the brutal record of slavery and white supremacy that underlies so much of our national story. Remaking our popular understanding of the “good” war’s climactic act is likely to be just as hard. But if the Confederate battle flag can come down in South Carolina, we can perhaps one day begin to ask ourselves more challenging questions about the nature of America’s global power, and what is true and what is false about why we really dropped the atomic bomb on Japan.


You also may want to review one of the sources of your wiki link here LINK

It clearly states that only 3 of the 6 members of a war council were ready to accept unconditional surrender. After the bombs all 6 agreed to unconditional surrender

So your own source just proved you wrong
Posted by eScott
Member since Oct 2008
11376 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:45 pm to
quote:

Yeah, I remember reading somewhere that every purple heart that's been awarded since WW2 was minted for the invasion of Japan.


LINK
Posted by Draconian Sanctions
Markey's bar
Member since Oct 2008
86749 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:48 pm to
quote:

Because we did not accept a conditional surrender.


but we did, except we just called it unconditional surrender so people like you could argue it was different than what Japan had already offered even though by all accounts it wasn't.
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
90110 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:48 pm to
quote:

If you want to look for someone to blame for the dropping of the atomic bombs, you need to look at the Japanese leadership.


It's incredible that after 70 years people are more critical of the US than the Japanese leadership.

The US clearly laid out their plan for destruction if you don't surrender. You don't surrender, then the US enacts their plan for destruction. 70 years later people question the US and let your asinine decision making go unscathed.
Posted by Tiger n Miami AU83
Miami
Member since Oct 2007
45656 posts
Posted on 4/17/18 at 4:49 pm to
quote:

did it save at least 1 american life? 


This is stupid. There is no world where killing a few hundred thousand is worth "1 American life".

That said it's a complex question with no clear answer.

Overall I say yes it was the right call. But it is a grey area
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