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re: So Idiocracy really is a documentary
Posted on 7/10/22 at 1:40 pm to Scruffy
Posted on 7/10/22 at 1:40 pm to Scruffy
Agreed, and I never even implied otherwise. Like I said I was arguing with the dude who said there should be zero thought for collectivism or the common good. Don’t put words in my mouth
1
Posted on 7/10/22 at 1:43 pm to RogerTheShrubber
It doesn’t have to be a slippery slope, things can just be managed better. Just because we care as a society for the sick and elderly doesn’t have to mean we support people who just don’t want to work. There is a middle ground, I know ideologues struggle to see that.
Posted on 7/10/22 at 1:43 pm to sabes que
quote:
should be zero thought for collectivism or the common good.
No one has said that.
Posted on 7/10/22 at 1:48 pm to RogerTheShrubber
Me -
quote:. You-
But there has to be some level of the common good and collectivism
quote:
There doesn’t.
Posted on 7/10/22 at 1:50 pm to sabes que
quote:
You-
You said "has to be"
There doesn't. But the best example of collectivism that works is the nuclear family, which Democrats hate.
This post was edited on 7/10/22 at 1:51 pm
Posted on 7/10/22 at 1:52 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
No one said otherwise. Most of the time, it was family.
No.
It was the collective. The "tribe" or "clan" collectively took care of each other. And before you come in with your "that's co-operation" argument: collectivism requires co-operation. You are assuming coolectivism means the soviet bastardization of forcing the collective to help.
That's not what he's trying to get across. He's trying to argue the form of the word that means putting the collective or group's needs in higher priority over an individual's actions or needs.
Throughout history, this has been the main form of human structure. It's how civilisation came about. It's how agriculture came about. Roads, trade, medicine, law, waste disposal, plumbing, etc.
You know, everything that makes your life comfortable.
Posted on 7/10/22 at 1:52 pm to RogerTheShrubber
No one hates the nuclear family, it’s just like no one is pro abortion, no one wants babies to be aborted or thinks that’s optimal, and no one thinks broken families are optimal. You have a distorted view of people that dare think differently than you
Posted on 7/10/22 at 1:59 pm to sabes que
quote:I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or not.
No one hates the nuclear family, it’s just like no one is pro abortion, no one wants babies to be aborted or thinks that’s optimal
There is a pretty significant percentage of progressives who think those exact things.
Hell, just the first point was a view originally posted on BLM’s website (since removed).
This post was edited on 7/10/22 at 2:01 pm
Posted on 7/10/22 at 2:02 pm to Scruffy
Well I am not and have not argued that. So don’t put words in my mouth. Plenty of people think all kinds of things, I don’t erroneously put that on you.
Posted on 7/10/22 at 2:05 pm to magildachunks
quote:Well, that is generally how it works in modern terms.
You are assuming coolectivism means the soviet bastardization of forcing the collective to help.
We aren’t a “tribe” or “clan” anymore. We are millions upon millions.
The idea of tribal or clan collectivism being applicable to modern society is a losing notion on its face.
Just as recently as 100 years ago, the elderly and ill were cared for by family.
Also, tribal and clan-esque collectivism was applicable to communities of the past.
I would argue that that aspect of “community” doesn’t exist anymore in modern societies at even an iota of its previous state.
The attempt to apply small scale collectivism to large scale societies ONLY results in the USSR style collectivism in the long run.
This post was edited on 7/10/22 at 2:07 pm
Posted on 7/10/22 at 2:06 pm to Scruffy
There are people that think Hillary is in Gitmo and Trump is in control, have I said that you believe that?
Posted on 7/10/22 at 2:07 pm to Scruffy
What if someone can’t be cared for by the family? A person born with a terrible disease that will cost millions of dollars?
Posted on 7/10/22 at 2:09 pm to sabes que
quote:
There are people that think Hillary is in Gitmo and Trump is in control, have I said that you believe that?
Buddy, the degree to which each of those two groups makes up their respective “political group” is astronomically different, and you know it too.
And I didn’t say you believed those things, only that there are pretty significant groups of progressives who do.
Posted on 7/10/22 at 2:12 pm to sabes que
quote:If you want to limit the argument for state sanctioned support to only that group, count me in.
What if someone can’t be cared for by the family? A person born with a terrible disease that will cost millions of dollars?
But that would never happen.
We are an all or none society.
Posted on 7/10/22 at 2:13 pm to Scruffy
quote:
Well, that is generally how it works in modern terms.
We aren’t a “tribe” or “clan” anymore. We are millions upon millions.
The idea of tribal or clan collectivism being applicable to modern society is a losing notion on its face.
Just as recently as 100 years ago, the elderly and ill were cared for by family.
Also, tribal and clan-esque collectivism was applicable to communities of the past.
I would argue that that aspect of “community” doesn’t exist anymore in modern societies at even an iota of its previous state.
The attempt to apply small scale collectivism to large scale societies ONLY results in the USSR style collectivism in the long run.
I'm not arguing any of that. I was just trying to clear up the mis-understanding they were having.
But it's also funny to me how the same people on this site who are fervently opposed to "collectivism" in any form, wax poetic about an "Individualist" government that died a quick death.
The CSA proved that by not being a "Collective" over an "Individual", you have no hope of surviving longterm.
There's a reason mankind turned away from small groups of nomadic tribes and collected their resources to form civilisation. It's what guaranteed our survival.
And I just want to point and laugh at the comment earlier that claimed if the world were individualistic, there wouldn't be war.
Posted on 7/10/22 at 2:14 pm to Scruffy
Sure there are people that believe that, I don’t see what that has to do with my argument
Posted on 7/10/22 at 2:16 pm to Scruffy
quote:. Not true at all. We as a society favor life in prison for certain crimes , but not life in prison for all or any crime. What you said is not true
We are an all or none society
Posted on 7/10/22 at 2:18 pm to sabes que
quote:
You act as if these things haven’t been in place in every developed country for decades. Yes we should be “forced” to care for those that are elderly, injured, etc.
I don’t think anyone has an issue with social services assisting with the elderly and ill. I think it should be these peoples families and charities, but I’m not upset at people with actual disabilities being assisted.
These care programs have been shifted down to able bodied individuals and that’s bullshite. We used to not put up with this and I’m not sure why we started
Posted on 7/10/22 at 2:18 pm to Scruffy
quote:
The attempt to apply small scale collectivism to large scale societies ONLY results in the USSR style collectivism in the long run.
The US has been doing it for 250 or so years.
The Soviet Union lasted 70 years.
So this has been debunked. Large-scale Collectivism is possible without going to the extremes the Soviets went to.
And let's get it straight: The US is a Collective. We do practice a form of collectivism. And it works, whether or not some people believe it doesn't.
It could be better, yes. But it isn't a Soviet form, and won't ever reach that.
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