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Message
1
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:07 am to abitaman6363
quote:
In other words--all evidence points to the fact that he was not reaching for a firearm.
What evidence do you have he was reaching for a gun?
It's pretty clear that in all likelihood he wasn't reaching for his gun, that's not the issue. The issue is that he had a gun, the officer and he are both aware now that it's known he has a gun, and he then proceeds to reach in the direction of the gun.
The story is a tragedy, undoubtedly, and it's fair to suggest that the officer could or even should have demonstrated more restraint, but the fact is that Castille should have been far more aware regarding how to proceed given that he was CCR holder.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:08 am to SUB
quote:
What?? He's supposed to wait and see what he's reaching for, after he told him not to reach for a gun? You realize how long it takes to shoot a gun after you get your hand on it, right? The officer could have been more clear and told him to keep his hands up or on the steering wheel, but that may be something that comes up in a civil case.
No. He is clearly supposed to shoot him because the calm driver is the one who told him he had a gun and did nothing to indicate we was going to use a gun and was following the officer's instructions to hand over his license and insurance. Is that your argument?
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:08 am to abitaman6363
quote:
What evidence do you have he was reaching for a gun?
Again, it's common sense if you have a gun on you in the car to either have your license out before the cop walks up and/or more importantly to have your hands on the steering wheel.
The cops should not be responsible to be perfect to keep you alive. The cop may not of been perfect here, but he was not completely wrong either. Castille is not alive because of his own actions.
This post was edited on 6/22/17 at 10:09 am
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:09 am to Displaced
quote:
Also after he told him to get his Id....
Wasn't that before Castille mentioned he was carrying? Obviously the declaration that he was carrying a gun changed the dynamic of the stop.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:10 am to baldona
quote:
The cops should not be responsible to be perfect to keep you alive
Yes they should, considering they are the authority....
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:12 am to ChewyDante
quote:
The issue is that he had a gun
This is where I'll push back on you because you are leaving out something incredibly important. Something that most on this forum will (tragically) baulk at.
The issue is that what happened to Philando Castille in all likelihood would not have happened had he instead been a white girl from the burbs.
You know it. I know it.
The same actions on behalf of Castille--put in another body--would have led to different results.
I don't agree with the uproar over every police shooting--several I have seen have been wholly justified to me (including the evidence I have seen from the one in BR).
This video is not one of them.
This post was edited on 6/22/17 at 10:13 am
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:14 am to abitaman6363
quote:
This is where I'll push back on you b/c I think you are leaving out something important. Something that most on this forum will (tragically) baulk at.
The issue is that what happened to Philando Castille in all likelihood would not have happened had he instead been a white girl from the burbs.
You know it. I know it
So what? Context matters, no shite.
Do you think 80 year old grandma's are going to be approached the same way as 20 year old males?
Real life isn't a vacuum and pretending that it should or ever will be is beyond delusional and utopian.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:14 am to abitaman6363
I agree. This is the one the black community should rally behind. Not Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:17 am to Displaced
quote:
The cops should not be responsible to be perfect to keep you alive Yes they should, considering they are the authority....
I do not expect police to be perfect--but I expect them to be burdened with highest degree of responsibility in our society.
What separates a state fro other entities is the right to legitimately use force. The highest authority we may grant an individual is the right to take away life. And this authority we have granted to our police force.
Police officers should be granted the utmost respect in our society and be given the tools necessary to do their job (training, equipment, etc.). We should reward them handsomely for their sacrifice.
But we must also demand of them the highest degree of responsibility. They must live up to the trust with which we endear them.
I expect officers to exercised reasoned restraint, to be better at the job than the average person, etc. I expect their to be mistakes--but few. Mistakes in an officer's line of work can mean lives lost. And this is what we've tragically witnessed in the Castille case.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:19 am to baldona
Why would he go for the gun?
1. He had committed no crime, other than broken tailight.
2. He had gone thru the trouble of obtaining a firearm permit.
3. He told the cop he had a gun in the car.
4. He had a woman and child with him, with two armed officers on both sides of the car.
It's not like Castile was a fugitive, or had any reason to fight the power.. This is simply an example of the cop overreacting, after a pretextual stop. Poor training and fear leads to shitty outcomes.
1. He had committed no crime, other than broken tailight.
2. He had gone thru the trouble of obtaining a firearm permit.
3. He told the cop he had a gun in the car.
4. He had a woman and child with him, with two armed officers on both sides of the car.
It's not like Castile was a fugitive, or had any reason to fight the power.. This is simply an example of the cop overreacting, after a pretextual stop. Poor training and fear leads to shitty outcomes.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:20 am to abitaman6363
Neither persons action is excusable. Only one got dead though. This cop should never be a cop again. His actions before and after make that clear.
He was terrified and then horrified by what he had done. I've only heard screaming like that on a video when a cop is looking down that littl black hole for a second.
Now if he is back on the street he is a liability. He may hesitate the next time, hell he may never touch a gun again after hearing the footage from the back of the patrol car. That little girl having to calm the mom down and being scared. "Please stop mommy, I don't want you to get shooted".
I guess the cop had no body camera? I have not heard and am not skimming a ten page thread.
He was terrified and then horrified by what he had done. I've only heard screaming like that on a video when a cop is looking down that littl black hole for a second.
Now if he is back on the street he is a liability. He may hesitate the next time, hell he may never touch a gun again after hearing the footage from the back of the patrol car. That little girl having to calm the mom down and being scared. "Please stop mommy, I don't want you to get shooted".
I guess the cop had no body camera? I have not heard and am not skimming a ten page thread.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:21 am to abitaman6363
quote:
Officer: "Don't pull it out."
Castille: "I'm not pulling it out."
What you are quoting as what Castille said is fact? It's CNN's transcription, which should be taken with a grain of salt. Listen to it without the words transcribed on the screen and judge for yourself what was said. Because to me, it's not 100% .
Before what you quoted, it sound more like he said "I'm, I'm reaching for [it?]", which in the vidoe, CNN just labels as "[inaudible]" however it is no more clear what he said there than what they transcribed in the next sentence as "I'm not pulling it out." To me, it sounds more like he said "I'mma have to pull it out", which I assume is because his ID is in the same pocket / area.
This post was edited on 6/22/17 at 10:22 am
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:21 am to ChewyDante
quote:
So what? Context matters, no shite.
When you say "context" what you meant was his age and race. What determines whether you live or die should not be your age and race. The fact that I need to explain this to you speaks volumes.
You take a defeatist attitude toward this rather than working to strive towards utopia. There is such a thing as collective efforts towards betterment, and merely saying that "real life isn't a vacuum" may work as an argument with your drinking buddies but is a plainly sad, immoral and fatalistic argument that won't fly with those persons with an iota of sense.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:29 am to abitaman6363
quote:
He is clearly supposed to shoot him because the calm driver is the one who told him he had a gun
The fact that the driver was calm has nothing to do with his actions. You imply that a calm person is incapable of shooting someone.
quote:
and did nothing to indicate we was going to use a gun
How do you even know this? There is NO video of what happened inside of the car. This is your assumption. Maybe you meant he "said nothing to indicate..." which is true, but doesn't mean jack shite. I can tell you "i'm not going for my gun" and still reach to my holster, draw my weapon, and shoot you.
quote:
and was following the officer's instructions to hand over his license and insurance. Is that your argument?
You conveniently bend the truth to fit your argument. Just stop. Yes, he asked for his ID at the beginning of the stop. Later on, the gun issue comes up, and the officer gave him a new order. Obviously, any coherent sensible person would know that "Don't reach for the gun" is a more important order than "Show me your ID."
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:30 am to abitaman6363
quote:
When you say "context" what you meant was his age and race. What determines whether you live or die should not be your age and race. The fact that I need to explain this to you speaks volumes.
Age, race, gender, location, and context of the stop. He didn't die because of his age and race, so now you are lying or are incompetent in limiting your conclusions to within the boundaries of valid reasoning.
I don't need you to explain shite to me. The fact that you are so blinded to reality and you think that you're offering meaningful insight to anyone speaks volumes.
Your self righteous attitude doesn't alter reality nor will it help prevent these occurrences in the future, but I'm sure it gives a nice warm feeling of self righteousness.
This post was edited on 6/22/17 at 10:32 am
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:37 am to abitaman6363
quote:
When you say "context" what you meant was his age and race. What determines whether you live or die should not be your age and race. The fact that I need to explain this to you speaks volumes.
When 13% of the pop is committing around 50% of violent crime-- stats that LEO have most access to, how could that not impact their psyche on some level whether subconscious or not?
I'm all for equal rights, & LEO's treating everyone fairly, but the black community as a whole can do a tremendous service to themselves by reducing the amount of violent crime perpetuated.
BLM groups shifting the blame from inner city thugs killing 97% of their own race to the police who kill less people than bees & wasps every year does a disservice to everyone in America
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:43 am to SUB
quote:
It's CNN's transcription, which should be taken with a grain of salt.
Thank you. That's why I linked to a Fox affiliate's transcription and made a point of doing so when I was posting on this a couple of days ago in this thread. quote:
Listen to it without the words transcribed on the screen and judge for yourself what was said. Because to me, it's not 100% .
Obvioiusly, you hear what you want to hear. It's crystal clear what he said. I was really surprised by all the people here insisting he said something like, "I'm gonna have to pull it out." I had played the video on my home system, and I heard what was in the transcripts I later looked up.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:44 am to ChewyDante
quote:
Your self righteous attitude doesn't alter reality nor will it help prevent these occurrences in the future, but I'm sure it gives a nice warm feeling of self righteousness.
Here is a hyphen (-). Use it.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:00 am to Spock's Eyebrow
quote:
Obvioiusly, you hear what you want to hear.
Nope. I hear what can be heard, which is a garbled recording and two people talking at the same time.
quote:
It's crystal clear what he said.
That's a ridiculous statement. Considering what I just said.
The words that are clear to me are "I'm, I'm, I'm [maybe saying something here like 'not' but being talked over by officer] reaching for it. I'm ____ ____ pull it out". No where in the second sentence do I hear any word that sounds remotely close to "not." I've listened to this at high volume on headphones at least 20 times.
This post was edited on 6/22/17 at 11:01 am
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