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re: Part of the new Hard Rock Hotel collapses (NOLA) 3 dead, Cranes Down-ish
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:08 pm to BigPerm30
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:08 pm to BigPerm30
quote:
legal theories and technical engineering and construction concepts in the hands of high school educated at best juries
The only time I would volunteer for a trial.
1
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:09 pm to BigPerm30
quote:
This is why construction litigation is expensive. It is never remotely black and white. What typically happens is everyone lawyers up, spends a shite ton of money, insurance companies get involved and then it settles shortly before trial. Insurance companies typically can’t stomach leaving complex legal theories and technical engineering and construction concepts in the hands of high school educated at best juries.
The only good news (or maybe bad for the designer) is that verifying the design should be pretty straightforward.
Build the model and run the calcs and do a code check.
Assuming the design is sound, verifying it was constructed per the plans and specs is a little more difficult (pIctures, shop drawings, concrete core samples, eyewitness testimony, etc.).
If and when everybody's insurance company sits down at the table to settle the most responsible party certainly bears the highest share.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:12 pm to AndyCBR
After looking at the drone footage, I really don’t think the demo will be that daunting. They need to pull a couple of sections out of the tower cranes and stabilize it. I’m sure the tie backs to the steel portion of the building are fricked. Once they get the tower cranes operational it will be fairly efficient to pull it down once they’re released. I can’t imagine the foundation of the cranes are messed up.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:13 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
For federal projects the govt makes the contracting company take out a performance bond for the sum of the entire bid to even put in a proposal for the work.
If the city govt is the one to step in and make a call like that and then hire a third party to clean it up theres the possibility they could go after the bond of the permit holders to fund it then settle it in court.
That said given its a private job I have no idea how big the bond is.
The Surety will probably accept the responsibility of demolition simply to mitigate their liability and worry about recovering the cost on the litigation side. Most bonding companies know the risk and how to handle a situation like this. It’s what they do for a living.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:14 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
For federal projects the govt makes the contracting company take out a performance bond for the sum of the entire bid to even put in a proposal for the work.
Are you sure about that? Pretty sure they just have to have a bid bond.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:18 pm to BigPerm30
quote:
After looking at the drone footage, I really don’t think the demo will be that daunting. They need to pull a couple of sections out of the tower cranes and stabilize it. I’m sure the tie backs to the steel portion of the building are fricked. Once they get the tower cranes operational it will be fairly efficient to pull it down once they’re released. I can’t imagine the foundation of the cranes are messed up.
I was wondering about the cranes. The supports are jacked up for sure and the places they used to tie to on the exiting structure are gone.
As far as taking sections out I wonder if the tower is tweaked enough to make that difficult. Regardless, I think a smaller track crane would be needed to do some of the demo around the tower crane mast first. But then have to worry about unstable slabs falling from above.
Keeping those hanging slabs stable until they can be safely demolished looks like the biggest challenge to me.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:18 pm to AndyCBR
quote:
The only good news (or maybe bad for the designer) is that verifying the design should be pretty straightforward.
Build the model and run the calcs and do a code check.
Assuming the design is sound, verifying it was constructed per the plans and specs is a little more difficult (pIctures, shop drawings, concrete core samples, eyewitness testimony, etc.).
If and when everybody's insurance company sits down at the table to settle the most responsible party certainly bears the highest share.
This seems very reasonable and that’s the engineer in you. Once discovery starts, the lawyers will dissect everything document, drawing note, spec, industry standards, etc. You know something will be contradicting. The attorneys will grasp on to any contradiction that helps their position and dig their heals in. That’s before looking at any RFI, ASI, design revision, etc. It seems counterintuitive, but the drawings on these bigger projects are shite and riddled with contradictions and errors. That’s why they’ll be close to 1000 RFIs on some of these things.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:19 pm to crimsonsaint
quote:
Are you sure about that? Pretty sure they just have to have a bid bond.
They have to provide a 5% bid bond just to bid. Then they have to provide a Performance and Payment bond.
And I can guarantee you on this job even if it is private no lender is going to loan without a bond unless the lender is the Teamsters.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:21 pm to crimsonsaint
quote:
For federal projects the govt makes the contracting company take out a performance bond for the sum of the entire bid to even put in a proposal for the work.
I know to get their NTP a performance bond has to be in place and verified. In the event something happens and the contractor cant finish they use that money to get another contractor. That said I could be wrong about getting it pre-bid, although getting an awarded contract and losing it due to improper bonding would be really bad business.
Eta: yup, I was wrong about full performance bond pre-bid, only need 5%.
This post was edited on 10/14/19 at 10:34 pm
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:22 pm to fightin tigers
quote:
The only time I would volunteer for a trial.
You’re too educated. One of the attorneys, probably the contractor’s, would strike you as a juror.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:27 pm to BigPerm30
quote:
his seems very reasonable and that’s the engineer in you. Once discovery starts, the lawyers will dissect everything document, drawing note, spec, industry standards, etc. You know something will be contradicting. The attorneys will grasp on to any contradiction that helps their position and dig their heals in. That’s before looking at any RFI, ASI, design revision, etc. It seems counterintuitive, but the drawings on these bigger projects are shite and riddled with contradictions and errors. That’s why they’ll be close to 1000 RFIs on some of these things.
I've actually been on both sides (engineering and construction).
You're right, there are many contradictions and inconsistencies in the plans and specs but the building codes structural calcs are pretty cut and dried.
The design either meets the current building codes and ASCE standards, or it doesn't, not a lot of gray area there.
Whether it was constructed based on the imperfect plans and specs (written by imperfect humans) is where the real gray area sets in.
In my experience all the insurance companies get drawn in and everybody pays something. The party most at fault tends to pay the largest percentage.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:27 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
I know to get their NTP a performance bond has to be in place and verified. In the event something happens and the contractor cant finish they use that money to get another contractor. That said I could be wrong about getting it pre-bid, although getting an awarded contract and losing it due to improper bonding would be really bad business.
You only need a bid bond to submit a proposal. The bid bond is 5% of your bid price. If you are low and for some reason can’t provide a performance and payment bond or just fricked up and left a bunch of money out they can make you forfeit the 5%. It’s rare but it does happen. I’ve seen it. I’ve never fricked one up or even had a bid tossed for not having all of the documents, acknowledging addendums, corporate resolution , contractors license on envelope etc... and never could figure out how someone could put that much effort just to bid a job and not sign the bid form. Or write a different dollar amount than they spell. But...plenty of dumbasses in our business.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:28 pm to Martini
quote:
They have to provide a 5% bid bond just to bid. Then they have to provide a Performance and Payment bond.
Yeah you have to provide a payment and performance bond when you’re awarded the job. Not before.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:31 pm to crimsonsaint
quote:
Yeah you have to provide a payment and performance bond when you’re awarded the job. Not before.
edited my previous postPosted on 10/14/19 at 10:32 pm to AndyCBR
quote:
In my experience all the insurance companies get drawn in and everybody pays something. The party most at fault tends to pay the largest percentage.
You’re right. They will spend millions of dollars in this charade before that all happens. It’s a ridiculous game and usually driven by the attorneys. They don’t want it settled because the meter stops.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:36 pm to BigPerm30
quote:
You’re right. They will spend millions of dollars in this charade before that all happens. It’s a ridiculous game and usually driven by the attorneys. They don’t want it settled because the meter stops.
And none of the subcontractors will collect what they are owed until then-including retainage.
If the Surety company comes in and takes over they might get a bit but not likely. That drywall contractor will get 30 cents on a dollar circa 2025 if he’s lucky.
The lucky contractors on the job are the one’s that haven’t started yet. Painter, floor etc...
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:43 pm to Martini
quote:
If the Surety company comes in and takes over they might get a bit but not likely. That drywall contractor will get 30 cents on a dollar circa 2025 if he’s lucky.
You’re talking about the performance bond. I’m fairly certain they had a payment bond on this too. Since the job was probably about halfway done and a lot of the debt already been paid, there should be a good bit of cushion in the payment bond. I’m not sure if they pulled down the payment bond as they paid debts toward the project. It’ll take some time and likely attorneys fees but I wouldn’t be overly concerned about getting paid if you aren’t a party directly involved in the incident.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:49 pm to BigPerm30
quote:
It’ll take some time and likely attorneys fees but I wouldn’t be overly concerned about getting paid if you aren’t a party directly involved in the incident.
I’ve been doing this for 50 years. If I’m owed money on that project I’m overly concerned. I know how this game works and I don’t put myself in those positions anymore simply because I don’t have to, but a lot of contractors out there are one broken refrigerator from being homeless. The last thing they can afford is to have their cash flow disrupted.
With no disrespect to the dearly departed.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:51 pm to Martini
Cash flow is a different issue and I understand your point.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:52 pm to NYNolaguy1
I’ve bid a ton of projects and have read more spec books than any should have to. 
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