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Message
re: OT Attorneys - Is an MPA/JD dual enrollment worth my time?
Posted on 12/11/15 at 2:56 pm to Geecubed
Posted on 12/11/15 at 2:56 pm to Geecubed
quote:
UNO, Southern, and LSU
If you're planning on working and going to school at the same time, you should go the Southern route.
Does UNO have some kind of exchange program with Loyola LS?
This post was edited on 12/11/15 at 2:59 pm
1
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:01 pm to LSUTigersVCURams
quote:
Does UNO have some kind of exchange program with Loyola LS?
Yes. UNO offers the MPA, and I would also have to get in to Loyola Law.
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:16 pm to Pettifogger
It is great that your J.D. was a great fit for both of the things you wanted to do. The issue is that saying J.D.s are versatile is two-fold. First, it encourages people who have no clue what they frick they want to do to go to law school and hope they just figure it out in the interim. Second, it creates a false impression that all employers want to see is a J.D.
Now neither one of these seemingly applies to you, and I am glad that it worked out for you. However what you are saying still counts as generally bad advice. You had a pre-existing idea of what you wanted to do and obtained a degree that is specifically useful for that field. Second you (presumably) had other useful things on your resume.
Unfortunately if you say something as generic as J.D.s are versatile on the Internet, some idiot English major/grad will interpret it as "Even though I really don't want to be an attorney, getting a J.D. is going to give me a ton of options to get a cushy corporate position doing something." They will then go to law school and probably join the tons of attorneys working dead end jobs to pay off their debt. Then if they make it that long, they will go back to bar tending or some other bullshite that doesn't use their degree.
I think the message you are trying to convey is "a J.D. can be a great differentiator on an other solid resume for a specific area you (1) want to go into and (2) know is an area where J.D.s are desired."
The honest truth is that a lot of the fallback "non-traditional" career options are drastically oversupplied (due to the linger effects of the 09-11 disaster) and are increasingly filled by degree holders specifically tailored to that role. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the traditional job market may actually be stronger than the non-traditional market at the moment. For instance Landmen (a very huge fallback profession in Texas) is currently bursting at the rim with J.D.s trying to get into an actual Legal role. The price of oil certainly isn't helping, but even before that, in mid-2014, the market was oversupplied with wanna be BigLaw associates and undersupplied with people willing to go run leasing drives in the field.
I would just recommend you fine tune the advice you are giving.
Now neither one of these seemingly applies to you, and I am glad that it worked out for you. However what you are saying still counts as generally bad advice. You had a pre-existing idea of what you wanted to do and obtained a degree that is specifically useful for that field. Second you (presumably) had other useful things on your resume.
Unfortunately if you say something as generic as J.D.s are versatile on the Internet, some idiot English major/grad will interpret it as "Even though I really don't want to be an attorney, getting a J.D. is going to give me a ton of options to get a cushy corporate position doing something." They will then go to law school and probably join the tons of attorneys working dead end jobs to pay off their debt. Then if they make it that long, they will go back to bar tending or some other bullshite that doesn't use their degree.
I think the message you are trying to convey is "a J.D. can be a great differentiator on an other solid resume for a specific area you (1) want to go into and (2) know is an area where J.D.s are desired."
The honest truth is that a lot of the fallback "non-traditional" career options are drastically oversupplied (due to the linger effects of the 09-11 disaster) and are increasingly filled by degree holders specifically tailored to that role. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the traditional job market may actually be stronger than the non-traditional market at the moment. For instance Landmen (a very huge fallback profession in Texas) is currently bursting at the rim with J.D.s trying to get into an actual Legal role. The price of oil certainly isn't helping, but even before that, in mid-2014, the market was oversupplied with wanna be BigLaw associates and undersupplied with people willing to go run leasing drives in the field.
I would just recommend you fine tune the advice you are giving.
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:16 pm to Geecubed
quote:
Yes. UNO offers the MPA, and I would also have to get in to Loyola Law.
just make sure your check clears and you won't have to worry about that. 
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:17 pm to CorporateTiger
quote:
Just out of curiosity what is your experience with what I will generously term "non-traditional" J.D. career options?
We hire many JDs outside of the legal department. Some are setup with me in the finance department (assuming they have a bachelor's degree in economics, finance, accounting, or business administration). We also hire many JDs in our risk analysis department. I also know a few guys with their JD that are over certain HUB teams, but that is a rarity.
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:19 pm to Geecubed
Unless you are practicing law, a JD is viewed as being an indecisive failure in almost any other career track. In fact I know several JD's who don't put their law degree on their resume for this reason.
It's kind of like being a business major who goes to MBA school right out of undergrad. The MBA make you look like a professional student instead of a hard working innovator. Same for a law degree in the business world. It is a hindrance to getting entry level jobs.
It's kind of like being a business major who goes to MBA school right out of undergrad. The MBA make you look like a professional student instead of a hard working innovator. Same for a law degree in the business world. It is a hindrance to getting entry level jobs.
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:19 pm to Forkbeard3777
So you hire otherwise qualified folks that happen to have a J.D. That isn't necessarily a great thing about the J.D. It basically means the company looks at as a great way to determine who is willing to throw three years of their life into high stress work for minimal reward.
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:22 pm to CorporateTiger
quote:
It basically means the company looks at as a great way to determine who is willing to throw three years of their life into high stress work for minimal reward.
Minimal reward? The JD could be the deciding factor to extending an offer of employment?
ETA: Not in the careers department. Don't have a JD.
This post was edited on 12/11/15 at 3:24 pm
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:24 pm to Forkbeard3777
So spending (on the conservative side) approximate 50k in order to incrementally improve your chances of getting hired is a great return on investment?
Especially when you could just go get a master's degree faster and cheaper (most of the time)?
Especially when you could just go get a master's degree faster and cheaper (most of the time)?
This post was edited on 12/11/15 at 3:25 pm
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:27 pm to CorporateTiger
quote:
I think the message you are trying to convey is "a J.D. can be a great differentiator on an other solid resume for a specific area you (1) want to go into and (2) know is an area where J.D.s are desired."
Not really, no. The advice I am giving is that the JD is, as degrees go, relatively versatile. It can fulfill a number of boxes which is why people in business, political and government arenas meet people with JDs all the time.
I appreciate that you're very convinced of your correctness and I'm sure having a variety of voices on the subject is useful for the OP to hear. That being said, I don't really give a shite what some English major twists my comments into. My job is not to serve as a harbinger against the concept of law school. I'm providing my experience both in getting hired and hiring, in addition to what I have witnessed.
I know nothing of being a landman with a JD other than knowing a landman and people from Texas. However, in the traditional arenas of non-practicing attorneys, which are lobbying, politics, a number of areas of government, and certain business arenas, JDs are still quite common. Those are all large fields, which, when combined with the practice of law itself, renders the JD a rather useful degree to have.
I've made a number of caveats in this thread for the OP and with regard to finding the specific tool for the desired career. But to the extent you continue to push for some retraction regarding the JD as a versatile degree, it's not going to happen.
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:28 pm to CorporateTiger
To answer the OP's question, unless you want to be an attorney, don't get a JD. It's simply not worth the likely amount of loans you will incur, missed opportunities elsewhere, and stress. Also, there is no guarantee that you will end up in the kind of position you desire after law school. In fact, most people don't end up doing what they initially thought they would. If you want to do policy work, get a graduate degree that is catered to that type of work. In fact, I would suggest a couple of years of work experience before making the decision about what you want to do. Believe it or not, what you always wanted to do may not be what you want to do a few years from now.
For the OTers thinking about law school, please realize that very few people that go to law school end up in the jobs they wanted to have coming out. The level of anxiety and depression associated with a legal career is a very real and taxing part of the profession. I consider myself to be one of the lucky few with a legal job that I actually enjoy. Unfortunately, I can't say that about most people I went to school with. With that said, every job has its good and bad days.
Finally, pretty much everything CorporateTiger has said here is the grim reality that all potential law students need to hear.
For the OTers thinking about law school, please realize that very few people that go to law school end up in the jobs they wanted to have coming out. The level of anxiety and depression associated with a legal career is a very real and taxing part of the profession. I consider myself to be one of the lucky few with a legal job that I actually enjoy. Unfortunately, I can't say that about most people I went to school with. With that said, every job has its good and bad days.
Finally, pretty much everything CorporateTiger has said here is the grim reality that all potential law students need to hear.
This post was edited on 12/11/15 at 3:31 pm
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:29 pm to CorporateTiger
quote:
So spending (on the conservative side) approximate 50k in order to incrementally improve your chances of getting hired is a great return on investment?
Especially when you could just go get a master's degree faster and cheaper (most of the time)?
Maybe the JD sticks out in the masses of MBAs. A MBA isn't exactly cheap or exclusive anymore. Like I said, I'm not sure what my company looks for anymore. We have a diverse mix of both CPA, JD, MBA, etc...maybe it's the "right fit". Maybe the JD is the tipping point? I have no clue. I do know that we have a fair amount that we hire outside of the legal department. Wouldn't that right there make it more versatile of a degree than a masters degree?
ETA: For example, I received my MBA in 1978. I can't work in the legal department. Ross, down the hall from me, received his JD in 1984. He works with me in the financial analysis department for our company. Ross could have also worked in legal if he pursued it. Is the JD more versatile than the masters?
This post was edited on 12/11/15 at 3:32 pm
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:32 pm to Forkbeard3777
Trust me, a J.D. aint exclusive either. The fact that you see so many is really more attributable to the incredible oversupply of J.D.s is recent years than it is anything else.
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:36 pm to CorporateTiger
quote:
Trust me, a J.D. aint exclusive either. The fact that you see so many is really more attributable to the incredible oversupply of J.D.s is recent years than it is anything else.
I agree. However, as far as I know, you physically have to go and attend class in order to receive your JD. There are countless numbers of online-MBA programs available. We have quite a few older employees that enroll in these courses. Some are pretty good (I've heard specific positive feedback from UNC's Kenan-Flagler), some people have told me it was a waste of time and money. It all depends on the person, timing, circumstances, and whatnot.
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:36 pm to Pettifogger
Ok. Well I'm glad you had a good experience, but most "non-traditional" jobs are not lobbyists and such. (In fact many lobbyists are still employed by law firms)
Most "non-traditional" career at this point are doc review and regulatory compliance. They aren't prestigious positions, trust me.
Most "non-traditional" career at this point are doc review and regulatory compliance. They aren't prestigious positions, trust me.
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:36 pm to Forkbeard3777
quote:
ETA: For example, I received my MBA in 1978. I can't work in the legal department. Ross, down the hall from me, received his JD in 1984. He works with me in the financial analysis department for our company. Ross could have also worked in legal if he pursued it. Is the JD more versatile than the masters?
The MBA and the JD are both very versatile degrees. Obviously this is relative to other degrees on a graduate basis. They're also very common degrees, which is why you have a lot of people with worthless versions of each.
People are missing the concept of versatility and skipping to "get a masters degree in your targeted field." I wouldn't promote getting a versatile degree above someone who knows what they need for their field, who the hell would? I also wouldn't get an MBA if I had no interest at all in business, ditto for law.
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:37 pm to CorporateTiger
quote:
Most "non-traditional" career at this point are doc review and regulatory compliance. They aren't prestigious positions, trust me.
Those aren't "career" positions, are they? I believe we pay $28-$34 a hour for document review. Hours are capped, but it isn't a bad way to earn some cash while looking.
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:39 pm to Geecubed
Well, do you want to be an attorney? I would ask people you know who are attorneys before you get into it. Law school can be fun. Being a lawyer sucks (imo). But you can take the law degree and, if you're already in government, leverage that into a GR or lobbyist position, which might be fun/up your alley.
Otherwise, unless you want to be a government attorney or lobbyist, I don't really know why you'd do an MPA/JD, but I could be ignorant of its benefits. An MBA/JD can be good from the right school, but again, you better want to be a corporate lawyer. Otherwise just get the MBA. Probably make more money that way anyway.
Otherwise, unless you want to be a government attorney or lobbyist, I don't really know why you'd do an MPA/JD, but I could be ignorant of its benefits. An MBA/JD can be good from the right school, but again, you better want to be a corporate lawyer. Otherwise just get the MBA. Probably make more money that way anyway.
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:40 pm to CorporateTiger
quote:
Ok. Well I'm glad you had a good experience, but most "non-traditional" jobs are not lobbyists and such. (In fact many lobbyists are still employed by law firms)
Most "non-traditional" career at this point are doc review and regulatory compliance. They aren't prestigious positions, trust me.
I'm not sure how you conclude that. Most doc review is legal practice, in my mind. I don't consider it outside of law at all, regardless of bar passage requirements. Most non-traditional JD jobs I see directly or am aware of are in the public sector/NGO/political space. Which is a pretty large area from my vantage point.
As for prestige, you're now on to an entirely different subject.
Posted on 12/11/15 at 3:46 pm to Forkbeard3777
quote:
Those aren't "career" positions, are they? I believe we pay $28-$34 a hour for document review. Hours are capped, but it isn't a bad way to earn some cash while looking.
No they aren't. I know people who are still doing that years after law school though because there isn't anything better.
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