- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Let’s have a WWI discussion. Which country is most at fault for it?
Posted on 4/4/19 at 8:20 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Posted on 4/4/19 at 8:20 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Germany for starting it, and then France for having a piss poor defensive plan and then Britain for letting gutless aristocrats in their army and failing to help the Belgians and French.
1
Posted on 4/4/19 at 8:27 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Please explain what other course of action was available to Germany once Russia began mobilization. But before you answer that, do you even understand the significance of a country mobilizing for war at that time? I ask this becususe if you did know, you’d not disagree.
I understand all this shite. I’m pretty confident in saying I know and have researched more about WWI than 99% of the people walking the planet. And I’m not trying to brag, it just is what it is.
Also, before I go down this road, understand I’m totally cool with just disagreeing on something and going on with my life.
IMHO, I think that when you take this position that Germany had no choice but to preemptively attack, you are acting like they couldn’t have done anything else. Like, once the fuse was lit, it was some path that couldn’t be strayed from. Like, no matter what, all they could’ve done was what they did. A path they knew would lead inexorably lead to war and we know it as probably the most useless war in history.
If I buy into the idea that Germany only invaded because they “had to”, then that is totally letting them off the hook. And I don’t buy that.
I understand what mobilization involves. How do we know France would’ve invaded Germany just because Russia decided to first? Again, I go back to my argument. Would we launch the nukes over Estonia? We just don’t know.
What should’ve been a regional conflict turned into the most destructive war in history to that point and we are still feeling the ripples from that war.
Germany and Russia are the two most culpable players. That’s it.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 8:36 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Can't fault the Germans for invading Belgium. It was effectively the only solution they had for what they saw as an inevitable two front war. Speed was the key to defeat France in time to receive Russia's massive blow in the east. The only way the Germans saw to speedily defeat France was to go around their border defenses. The only way around those border defenses was through Belgium.
And by 1914, that was the only contingency they had for a major war against France and her allies.
Exactly. And they figured they only had 6 weeks to do this and knock France out of the war before Russia had finished its mobilization. And the only way to pull off this six week campaign to defeat France was to concentrate a massive force in the west against France which meant until France was defeated Germany was very weak in the east against Russia.
The real key to the German war plan was the logistics to first concentrate and strike in the west then move those forces east in time to face the Russians. The logistics details the Germans made were typically intricate as is typical of Germans. They even had the entire German railway system drafted with the dispatching of literally thousands of trains timed down to minute. The truth of the Schlieffen Plan was that while it was Germany’s best hope at not being crushed between France and Russia is that it rellied on thousands upon thousands of moving parts to all work perfectly and on time or the whole plan would fail. And paramount to thier success was to hit first France and then Russia before either had time to fully mobilize. If either France or Germany was successful in fully mobilizing before Germany defeated them, the plan would fail and Germany would face the specter of a two front war that they’d almost assuredly lose. This is why once Russia began mobilization, war was unavoidable. The moment the Russians began mobilization, the six week clock in Germany began ticking. This is why the one move more than any that caused WWI was the Russians mobilizing their forces.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 8:46 pm to alajones
quote:
June 28, 1914 - Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the Austrian throne, and his wife, visit Sarajevo in Bosnia. A bomb is thrown at their auto but misses. Undaunted, they continue their visit only to be shot and killed a short time later by a lone assassin. Believing the assassin to be a Serbian nationalist, the Austrians target their anger toward Serbia.
July 23, 1914 - Austria-Hungary, with the backing of Germany, delivers an ultimatum to Serbia. The Serbs propose arbitration as a way to resolve dispute, but also begin mobilization of their troops.
July 25, 1914 - Austria-Hungary severs diplomatic ties with Serbia and begins to mobilize its troops.
July 26, 1914 - Britain attempts to organize a political conference among the major European powers to resolve the dispute between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. France and Italy agree to participate. Russia then agrees, but Germany refuses.
July 28, 1914 - The Austro-Hungarian Empire declares war on Serbia.
July 29, 1914 - Britain calls for international mediation to resolve the worsening crisis. Russia urges German restraint, but the Russians begin partial troop mobilization as a precaution. The Germans then warn Russia on its mobilization and begin to mobilize themselves.
July 30, 1914 - Austrian warships bombard Belgrade, capital of Serbia.
July 31, 1914 - Reacting to the Austrian attack on Serbia, Russia begins full mobilization of its troops. Germany demands that it stop.
August 1, 1914 - Germany declares war on Russia. France and Belgium begin full mobilization.
August 3, 1914 - Germany declares war on France, and invades neutral Belgium. Britain then sends an ultimatum, rejected by the Germans, to withdraw from Belgium.
August 4, 1914 - Great Britain declares war on Germany. The declaration is binding on all Dominions within the British Empire including Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India and South Africa.
August 4, 1914 - The United States declares its neutrality.
Yes.
They could've come to the table Britain wanted. They could have withdrew their support of Austria.
But they knew a bill was due from the last generational conflict.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 8:52 pm to alajones
You’re totally missing the significance of the mobilization of Russia. Germany knew they could never win a war against a fully mobilized Russia without committing every able bodied man in the east. And they knew if they concentrated all their forces against Russia then France would, as per their treaty obligations to Russia, immediately invade from the west. In fact, France already had plans in place for such an invasion. So, what is it you think Germany could do once Russia began mobilizing?
Posted on 4/4/19 at 8:53 pm to Darth_Vader
Well said, Darth.
Mobilization was at a snail’s pace, even in the early 20th century.
The biggest crime was the glacial pace of tactics trying to catch up to technology.
Mobilization was at a snail’s pace, even in the early 20th century.
The biggest crime was the glacial pace of tactics trying to catch up to technology.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 8:56 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
OP read the book “Brotherhood Of Darkness” by Dr Stanley Monteith. That book explains a great deal about both world wars and who financed them.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 8:59 pm to Jobu93
quote:
Well said, Darth.
Mobilization was at a snail’s pace, even in the early 20th century.
The biggest crime was the glacial pace of tactics trying to catch up to technology.
The real significance mobilization was that once these began the control of the situation was taken from the diplomats and moved to the military. And the key was to mobilize and strike as soon as possible. And in the Germans case, it meant they had to mobilize and strike before either Russia or France had completed their mobilizations. Once Russia mobilized, Germany had no other option than to implement their war plan before Russian mobilization was complete.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:08 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
It was Napoleon's fault. Although the war began almost exactly 100 years after his defeat at Waterloo, he stirred up some serious shite while he was in power. He changed the borders of countries, which brought about the nationalist movements in the Balkans and elsewhere in Europe. He is the reason for the ever-shifting alliances in Europe because he was such a bad arse that it took four or five countries combined to defeat him. He caused the push for conservatism and the rise of Metternich. He contributed to the rise of Bismarck and the unification of the beast that became Germany. France was humiliated on the eve of Germany's unification and wanted another shot at Germany when the war broke out. Britain got involved in a stupid commitment to defend Belgium, a country Germany didn't even want to fight. They were just in the way. The war was inevitable, but it wouldn't have been necessary without Napoleon. And to be fair, Napoleon was a result of the French Revolution, which a result of those French pansies Montesquieu, Voltaire, Rousseau, Diderot, and the rest of those Enlightenment philosophes. So, France is to blame
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 9:10 pm
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:19 pm to Jamohn
Because it is the #1 country to blame. The Kaiser felt looked down upon by his cousins in the English and Russian royal families, Germany was an upstart empire that saw an opening in Europe to rack up points and shot their shot. The fact that the Schlieffen Plan existed long before is proof. And then they chose to be the country to violate Belgium's sovereignty.
Eloquently stated
Eloquently stated
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:23 pm to ecb
quote:
then France for having a piss poor defensive plan
France’s defensive plan was “Attaque à outrance” or “Attack to excess”
Their word was élan.
It’s why the Entente leaders, Haig and Joffre especially, are considered butchers. They continually went on the offensive with no shot at breaking out and wasting countless lives.
The Germans knew the French would attack Alsace-Lorraine because it’s the area they lost in the Franco-Prussian War. It’s one of the reasons they went with a wide and strong right hook. They knew the French would almost immediately attack in that region and they wanted to trap them there.
The German (really the Junker elites) commanders from Frederick the Great all the way to the end of WWII were truly remarkable in military history.
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 9:25 pm
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:31 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:They “knew”? Did they? Turns out Russia was in no shape to do doodlie squat. Germany could’ve “mobilized” themselves also and prepared for a defensive war, not offensive. They assumed they were bound to the Schlieffen Plan. They absolutely were not.
Germany knew they could never win a war against a fully mobilized Russia without committing every able bodied man in the east. And they knew if they concentrated all their forces against Russia then France would, as per their treaty obligations to Russia, immediately invade from the west. In fact, France already had plans in place for such an invasion. So, what is it you think Germany could do once Russia began mobilizing?
Literally nothing I have read has ever convinced me that France was absolutely going to invade Germany just because Russia did. Especially since in hindsight we see how unprepared Russia was and how much Germany bitch slapped them out of the gate.
And who knows if Russia 100% was going to invade anyone?
A lot of people always say that the war was happening regardless. Was it? The US and the USSR never went at it. There are plenty of examples in history where situations diffuse themselves over time.
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 9:32 pm
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:36 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
France’s defensive plan was “Attaque à outrance” or “Attack to excess”
Their word was élan.
It’s why the Entente leaders, Haig and Joffre especially, are considered butchers. They continually went on the offensive with no shot at breaking out and wasting countless lives.
The Germans knew the French would attack Alsace-Lorraine because it’s the area they lost in the Franco-Prussian War. It’s one of the reasons they went with a wide and strong right hook. They knew the French would almost immediately attack in that region and they wanted to trap them there.
The German (really the Junker elites) commanders from Frederick the Great all the way to the end of WWII were truly remarkable in military history.
Exactly. The reason France’s Defensive plan was piss poor was because France didn’t have a defensive plan. After the Franco-Prussian War France took an exclusively offensive strategy when it came to Germany.
And Germamy was fully aware of this. That’s why from even before the ink was dry on the Franco-Russian treaty was dry that Germany realized that war with Russia would also mean war with France. Preventing France from being able to build a coalition against Germany was one of the main reason that before he died, Bismarck had had his main foreign policy objective to keep France isolated and unable to secure a treaty with any European power.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:39 pm to fr33manator
Yeah....frick Belgium
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:43 pm to alajones
quote:
They “knew”? Did they? Turns out Russia was in no shape to do doodlie squat. Germany could’ve “mobilized” themselves also and prepared for a defensive war, not offensive. They assumed they were bound to the Schlieffen Plan. They absolutely were not.
Literally nothing I have read has ever convinced me that France was absolutely going to invade Germany just because Russia did. Especially since in hindsight we see how unprepared Russia was and how much Germany bitch slapped them out of the gate.
And who knows if Russia 100% was going to invade anyone?
A lot of people always say that the war was happening regardless. Was it? The US and the USSR never went at it. There are plenty of examples in history where situations diffuse themselves over time.
You’re not taking into account the fact that Germany did not think it could withstand a war against a fully mobilizated Russia, especially one allied with France. To Germany it was a matter of national survival. Germany thought that it’s only hope against Russia was to defeat them before Russia had a chance to complete mobilization. Once Russia was fully mobilized, the odds of winning against Russia were not good. Thus, as soon as Russia began mobilization Germany saw that it only had a limited six week timeframe to secure its western flank by knocking France first so it could concentrate its full force against Russia. To do anything else would only invite disaster.
Look at it this way. Think of a fight against a small guy and a huge guy. The small guy knows his only hope is to land a knockout blow before the bigger guy can use his superior dice and strength to overwhelm the smaller guy. So the smaller guy can’t wait for the big guy to get ready and make his move. He’s got to land that first knockout punch if he has any hope of not getting his arse kicked. Germany was that small guy and Russia was the huge guy. And worse yet for Germany, the huge guy Russia had a buddy in France that they had to knockout first before they had to do the same to Russia.
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 9:48 pm
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:47 pm to X123F45
quote:
Earlier that day, they someone else tried and failed to assassinate him. If at first you don't succeed...
Member of the same gang (Black Hand) threw a pipe bomb that a guy in the archbishops car swatted away....blew up the car behind them. Archduke went on with his speech later on in the day. On the way back he wanted to visit the hospital where the people from the car behind him went to get treated, no one told the driver though. When they passed the turn to the hospital the archduke stopped the driver and told him he missed the turn...as luck has it, principe walked out of a sandwich shop on that same corner, gun in one hand and sandwich in the other....shot the archduke and wife
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:47 pm to Darth_Vader
You’re repeating over and over Germany’s strategy and the reasons for it. I’m taking it all into account and I’ve known all these factors for a really, really long time.
I’m still not convinced and have never been convinced that it was something they had to do and had no other more diplomatic or de-escalating options.
I’m still not convinced and have never been convinced that it was something they had to do and had no other more diplomatic or de-escalating options.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 9:59 pm to alajones
quote:
You’re repeating over and over Germany’s strategy and the reasons for it. I’m taking it all into account and I’ve known all these factors for a really, really long time.
The reason I’m repeating it is because it’s the facts. The mobilization by Russia ended all hope of a diplomatic solution. Germany could not to continue to pursue a diplomatic solution while Russia was mobilizing for war because once that mobilization was completed Germany would have little to no chance at stopping the Russian “steamroller” from rolling all the way to a Berlin, especially with France sitting on its western frontier looking for even half a chance to reclaim what it had lost in the Franco-Prussian War.
quote:
I’m still not convinced and have never been convinced that it was something they had to do and had no other more diplomatic or de-escalating options.
Again I ask, what else could Germany do once Russia started mobilization?
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 10:03 pm
Posted on 4/4/19 at 10:04 pm to Darth_Vader
Literally anything else!!!
THEY DID NOT HAVE TO INVADE BELGIUM!!!
No one forced them to.
To act like that’s all they could do and that’s they only choice they had is something I will never agree with. Ever ever ever ever ever.
Now. I have lost interest. I have to get a good nights rest.
THEY DID NOT HAVE TO INVADE BELGIUM!!!
No one forced them to.
To act like that’s all they could do and that’s they only choice they had is something I will never agree with. Ever ever ever ever ever.
Now. I have lost interest. I have to get a good nights rest.
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 10:05 pm
Posted on 4/4/19 at 10:16 pm to alajones
quote:
Literally anything else!!!
Like what? Remember, you’ve only got six weeks max before Russian armies will be streaming into Germany. And there is still the matter of France to contend with.
quote:
THEY DID NOT HAVE TO INVADE BELGIUM!!!
No one forced them to.
I’m guessing you’re unaware of the massive French Forces on the frontier with Germany that would make a six week campaign to defeat France impossible. The only reason Germany sent Forces through Belgium was to flank the French army and their line of strong forts facing Germany.
quote:
To act like that’s all they could do and that’s they only choice they had is something I will never agree with. Ever ever ever ever ever.
Now. I have lost interest. I have to get a good nights rest.
To fully understand what started WWI, you have to be able to set aside all personal feeling for or against the nations involved and look at the subject objectively from the standpoint of each country involved. Only when you can do this can you understand the German mindset and their decisions made in the summer of 1914. Was what they did right from s moral standpoint? Arguably no. But if you can set aside preconceived notions, you can gain an understanding of what went into them. And from their standpoint, from the moment Russia began mobilization, Germamy had no option other than to defeat Russia before their mobilization was completed. And to do that meant defeating France first. And to defeat France before they or Russia could complete mobilization meant going though Belgium to bypass France’s defenses.
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 10:30 pm
Page 5 of 7
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News