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re: How intense was the Battle of Berlin?
Posted on 2/26/17 at 12:09 am to Cosmo
Posted on 2/26/17 at 12:09 am to Cosmo
quote:
Mostly Germans and Russians dead
Merica just cleaned up the mess
Some of the last Troops left fighting in Berlin were French. These soldiers were members of the Waffen SS defending the chancellery itself. Most knew they were fricked if taken prisoner so they fought like hell to the bitter end.
As for the fighting itself, really the worst of it was done just outside the city along the Seelow Heights where what was left of the German 9th Army made Zukov's 1st Belorussian Front pay dearly to overcome the last defensive line outside Berlin itself.
The Soviets began their assault on the Seelow Heights on April 16 with one of the biggest and most intense artillery bombardments of the war. The Soviets vastly outnumbered the Germans in literally every way. And the ammunition supply on the German side was so pitiful some batteries could only fire like 3 rounds a day. But despite this it took the Soviets three days to break through the German defenses and encircle the shattered remants of the German 9th Army*.
The defeat of 9th Army basically ended anything resembling an organized German front. The road to Berlin was wide open and all there was in the city was a pitifully small force of Volksstrum (old men and young boys) and a few miscellaneous SS units. They fought as best they could, including the little boys of the Volkstrum who would ride bicycles like this into battle...
... but there was no hope of them ever holding Berlin. In fact the Battle of Berlin would not have lasted as long as it did had Soviet soldiers not spent so much time stopping to rape the women of Berlin and get drunk.
* - to give you an idea of the level of delusion Hitler had sunk down to towards the end, even after the 9th Army had been crushed and it's remnants completely encircled, he still expected it to not only break out from its encirclement but to also fight its way north to Berlin and drive the Soviets out of the city.
Posted on 2/26/17 at 12:12 am to Sayre
quote:
The Russians would have defeated Germany without our help. It would have taken longer, but was still inevitable. All we did was make sure Western Europe didn't become part of the Iron Curtain.
That's not entirely true. In fact, it's likely without thecallied "lend/lease" program, the Soviets would have collapsed.
Posted on 2/26/17 at 12:21 am to ornagestorm
quote:
Food, supply trucks, and support equipment yes. Tanks hellz no. The T-34 was one of the best tanks in the war and was a lot better than the Sherman. The bulk of their artillery, guns, ammunition, tanks, and planes was made in the Soviet Union
The myth of the T-34,has been vastly overstated since WWII. It's best quality was ease of production and reliability. It's sloped armor made it tough to kill.
But on the other hand both the early 76mm version and later 85mm version were terribly inaccurate. And this problem was only made worse by the pathetically bad optics Soviet tanks had to deal with. These two facts meant the Soviet tank fighting style was basically to close to virtually point blank range in tank vs tank fights. They had to do this to have any hope of overcoming German Panthers and Tigers.
The Germans though had very accurate main guns, the 7.5 cm and the famous 8.8 cm, coupled to the best tank sights on the world. This allowed the German tanks to sit back like snipers and hammer Soviet tank columns, oftentimes before the Soviets could even see them.
This post was edited on 2/26/17 at 12:23 am
Posted on 2/26/17 at 12:26 am to Darth_Vader
The engagement at Seelow Heights is always fascinating to me. Putting myself into the shoes of a German soldier at that time scares the hell out of me.
Posted on 2/26/17 at 12:30 am to rmnldr
quote:
The engagement at Seelow Heights is always fascinating to me. Putting myself into the shoes of a German soldier at that time scares the hell out of me
It was pretty much the last organized pitched battle in Europe. There was a German film made not long ago that was about the Battle of Seelow Heights. I saw a preview on YouTube and it looks pretty good.
Posted on 2/26/17 at 12:35 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
coupled to the best tank sights on the world. This allowed the German tanks to sit back like snipers and hammer Soviet tank columns, oftentimes before the Soviets could even see them.
Didn't the company producing those eventually become a telescope company? We used some of their telescopes in Astronomy- insane craftsmanship.
Posted on 2/26/17 at 12:38 am to SlapahoeTribe
quote:
Didn't the company producing those eventually become a telescope company? We used some of their telescopes in Astronomy- insane craftsmanship.
That company is still around and still in the optics business...
Posted on 2/26/17 at 1:06 am to Darth_Vader
I've got a pair of zeiss binoculars. They're insane
Posted on 2/26/17 at 5:40 am to ornagestorm
The Soviets were the real heroes of WW2. America just co-opted much of their glory. It was a disservice to all of those dead Ruskies.
Posted on 2/26/17 at 5:41 am to genuineLSUtiger
Your hook is too shiny.
Posted on 2/26/17 at 5:44 am to GREENHEAD22
Haven't had my coffee yet. Makes me lazy. I definitely needed to add some subtleties in that one.
Posted on 2/26/17 at 5:45 am to genuineLSUtiger
Let's not go overboard.
And as far as the Soviets being able to win without our help, Stalin himself didn't think so. He was clamoring for a second front in the West as early as 1942.
And as far as the Soviets being able to win without our help, Stalin himself didn't think so. He was clamoring for a second front in the West as early as 1942.
Posted on 2/26/17 at 6:05 am to RollTide1987
One of my favorite stories about the battle for Berlin is what the German 12th army did after the city was surrounded.
The German 12th Army was facing west bitterly holding the line against the Americans with their back towards Berlin. Once the Soviets had completely surrounded the city the 12th's commander knew that there was still hundreds of thousands of civilians still trapped inside the city.
They knew the war was over and they could have stayed put and surrendered to the Americans with the guarantee of fair treatment. But no. They completely wheeled around and attacked the Soviets with such fury that they punched a small corridor threw to the city and held it open long enough for untold thousands of civilians to escape out of the city and make it to the American lines and safety. That was a very heroic deeds.
The German 12th Army was facing west bitterly holding the line against the Americans with their back towards Berlin. Once the Soviets had completely surrounded the city the 12th's commander knew that there was still hundreds of thousands of civilians still trapped inside the city.
They knew the war was over and they could have stayed put and surrendered to the Americans with the guarantee of fair treatment. But no. They completely wheeled around and attacked the Soviets with such fury that they punched a small corridor threw to the city and held it open long enough for untold thousands of civilians to escape out of the city and make it to the American lines and safety. That was a very heroic deeds.
Posted on 2/26/17 at 6:26 am to genuineLSUtiger
You had a nibble but I think they dropped it.
All the HD documentaries that are out now are,to me,like seeing this stuff for the 1st time.
It's mind blowing,to me,that of all the German Soldiers that were sent to the Gullogs(sp),only around 10K lived to return to Germany in the 1950's.
All the HD documentaries that are out now are,to me,like seeing this stuff for the 1st time.
It's mind blowing,to me,that of all the German Soldiers that were sent to the Gullogs(sp),only around 10K lived to return to Germany in the 1950's.
Posted on 2/26/17 at 7:15 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
The Soviets began their assault on the Seelow Heights on April 16 with one of the biggest and most intense artillery bombardments of the war. The Soviets vastly outnumbered the Germans in literally every way. And the ammunition supply on the German side was so pitiful some batteries could only fire like 3 rounds a day. But despite this it took the Soviets three days to break through the German defenses and encircle the shattered remants of the German 9th Army*.
Shouldn't Steiner's assault have brought it under control?
Posted on 2/26/17 at 8:00 am to ornagestorm
quote:
Tanks hellz no.
We gave them plenty of Shermans. Google it.
LC
Posted on 2/26/17 at 8:18 am to LongueCarabine
quote:
We gave them plenty of Shermans. Google it.
LC
We did. It the real difference we made was in logistics through three things....
Tires, Spam, and the "Duce & half" truck.
The Soviets had no problem pumping out things like tanks, guns, and ammo. But as anyone who knows anything can tell you, wars are won or lost on logistics. And what the Soviets didn't have and really could not produce in large numbers was food, trucks, and tires. And without these items all the tanks in the world would do you no good because the tanks would run out of fuel and ammo while the tank crews starved from lack of food. Thus, truth be told, without our help the Soviets would have collapsed due to lack of supplies.
Posted on 2/26/17 at 8:19 am to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
Shouldn't Steiner's assault have brought it under control?
Posted on 2/26/17 at 8:25 am to genuineLSUtiger
quote:
The Soviets were the real heroes of WW2. America just co-opted much of their glory. It was a disservice to all of those dead Ruskies.
The only bad thing about the invasion of Russia is that not enough Communists were killed.
LC
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