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Started By
Message
re: Appeals Court: Confederate monuments in NOLA to be removed.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:48 pm to TbirdSpur2010
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:48 pm to TbirdSpur2010
I'm not sure where I stand on the issue. It's hard to understand where both sides were coming from leading up to the Civil War since we didn't live during that time period.
Think about how divided we seem today. Think about how emotional and nuts people are right now. The explanations of how we got to this point and the things people feel are very complex and you can write a lot about why people feel the way they do.
Yet we aren't at the point of war right now.
They reached that point back then. What led up to the Civil War I'm sure was very complex and built up for decades, and I feel like people try to simply It down to good and evil.
I don't believe Southerners were evil and the North was good.
Yes, we know now that slavery was wrong, and they were figuring that out back then, but that's how the world was during those times. I don't look down on great people from hundreds of years ago like Thomas Jefferson because they held slaves. That is what people did back then.
Now, the KKK and groups like that... that's a totally different story.
Think about how divided we seem today. Think about how emotional and nuts people are right now. The explanations of how we got to this point and the things people feel are very complex and you can write a lot about why people feel the way they do.
Yet we aren't at the point of war right now.
They reached that point back then. What led up to the Civil War I'm sure was very complex and built up for decades, and I feel like people try to simply It down to good and evil.
I don't believe Southerners were evil and the North was good.
Yes, we know now that slavery was wrong, and they were figuring that out back then, but that's how the world was during those times. I don't look down on great people from hundreds of years ago like Thomas Jefferson because they held slaves. That is what people did back then.
Now, the KKK and groups like that... that's a totally different story.
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 12:49 pm
1
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:48 pm to ballscaster
quote:
lot of people do this. We don't need statues of all of them.
Are you opposed to him being at West Point?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:53 pm to rmnldr
quote:
You're looking at this situation as if it were happening in modern times. We ALL know that slavery is evil today, and many knew it back then as well.
I haven't referenced slavery at all
That's not the crux of my argument (even though, by their own admission, it was the cornerstone of secession reasons for multiple Confederate states). quote:
Robert E. Lee was a great American general
Indeed. He was a helluva tactician. That's not even up for debate. Hell, I'm named for him irl, and so will my son when he's born
quote:
who fought what he believed was an honorable fight, as an honorable man.
You can say that about plenty of great military minds who fought for a harmful cause.
I'm saying there is a proper historical context. The length of time a monument has been there really is irrelevant to me. It's what it represents: a great general who fought well for a cause he believed in, but ultimately one that is not supportive of American values. Just because he believed in it doesn't give him a pass, I'm sorry. Museum. History books. Learn. Don't need to exalt.
quote:
The one removal of a statue I will not, however, protest against is the removal of the Jefferson Davis statue. I firmly believe that a monument of him has absolutely no place in this city and his actions/thoughts should be taught to future generations for the evil they were.
His past was....checkered, shall we say
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:53 pm to ballscaster
quote:
Nah, just not worthy of a statue.
He was back then and you can't change the fact that they erected one back then. Don't demolish history just because it isn't convenient for you today. He was a national hero for millions in the South and a character larger than life in the North. His prowess as a politician and strategist has been studied for decades and will continue to be. He was worthy of a statue then and his memory today still sparks interest and rememberance of America's darkest hours.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:55 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:I'm not opposed to anything. But if somebody wants to take the Lee statue down in New Orleans, knowing when and why it was put up there, I'd have to be a total dipshit to burn calories digging in my heels trying to protect it. That statue shouldn't have been put up in the first place.
Are you opposed to him being at West Point?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:56 pm to GEAUXmedic
Well all of the street signs and school were renamed, might as well remove anything related to the confederate war 
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:56 pm to rmnldr
quote:Not at stake. A statue isn't history.
Don't demolish history
quote:Don't care. Not statue-worthy.
He was a national hero for millions in the South and a character larger than life in the North. His prowess as a politician and strategist has been studied for decades and will continue to be. He was worthy of a statue then and his memory today still sparks interest and rememberance of America's darkest hours.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:57 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
we aren't at the point of war right now.
They reached that point back then. What led up to the Civil War I'm sure was very complex and built up for decades, and I feel like people try to simply It down to good and evil.
Heartily agree. I always try to keep in mind the fact that there is hardly ever one concrete, universally agreed upon reason factions take up arms. Good/evil makes for easier-digestible recollection, but rarely reflects the nuances of the time.
quote:
I don't believe Southerners were evil and the North was good.
Nor do I
slavery and state's rights to own slaves were political footballs, and they were fully exploited by both sides in the lead up to and during the war. The EP itself was a political gambit. Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:59 pm to ballscaster
quote:
I'm not opposed to anything.
quote:
That statue shouldn't have been put up in the first place.
Should both portraits of Lee (one in full Confederate garb) hang in the halls of our nation's premier military academy?
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 12:59 pm
Posted on 3/7/17 at 12:59 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
I'm saying there is a proper historical context. The length of time a monument has been there really is irrelevant to me. It's what it represents: a great general who fought well for a cause he believed in, but ultimately one that is not supportive of American values. Just because he believed in it doesn't give him a pass, I'm sorry. Museum. History books. Learn. Don't need to exalt.
The idea of what "American values" are isn't the same as what it was 100 years ago. Might as well take down everything that has to do with American history because the current values aren't aligned. Take all the founding fathers off the currency because they owned slaves. Take the word "God" off of everything because everyone is triggered by Christianity.
Yes I know that it's a logical fallacy, but we're going down a slippery slope if we take this down. You give an inch and they will take a mile. And we both know who "they" are. They're the marxists who want to see American exceptionalism destroyed at its very core.
quote:
Not at stake. A statue isn't history.
The statue ITSELF is history. It's been in the city for over 100 years.
quote:
Don't care. Not statue-worthy.
Are we erecting it today or demolishing it?
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 1:02 pm
Posted on 3/7/17 at 1:04 pm to rmnldr
quote:
Yes I know that it's a logical fallacy
Precisely. No need to engage in that.
Also, again, let me reiterate that being opposed to slavery today is not the argument I'm making. I'm saying the actions of the confederacy in their attempts to secede directly threatened the very existence of our nation. Regardless of their self-justified reasons for said course of action, I cannot abide such. I will not defend such. I will not support the exalting of such.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 1:05 pm to GEAUXmedic
Are they going to be relocated to a city that will actually appreciate them? Like Denham Springs, Ponchatoula, Hammond, Slidell?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 1:07 pm to LSU_Saints_Hornets
Are they going to be relocated to a city that will actually appreciate them? Like Denham Springs, Ponchatoula, Hammond, Slidell?
-----
I got a buddy who has a Platinum to pull my trailer. We are getting the statue and bringing it to Central.
-----
I got a buddy who has a Platinum to pull my trailer. We are getting the statue and bringing it to Central.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 1:08 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
I'm saying the actions of the confederacy in their attempts to secede directly threatened the very existence of our nation. Regardless of their self-justified reasons for said course of action, I cannot abide such. I will not defend such. I will not support the exalting of such.
Are there any circumstances in which you would support states leaving the union?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 1:08 pm to TbirdSpur2010
You don't have to. No one is forcing you to.
But don't argue in favor of removing 100+ year old monuments that aren't offensive or doing any harm by using taxpayer dollars.
But don't argue in favor of removing 100+ year old monuments that aren't offensive or doing any harm by using taxpayer dollars.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 1:12 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:False equivalency. Not engaging.
Should both portraits of Lee (one in full Confederate garb) hang in the halls of our nation's premier military academy?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 1:13 pm to rmnldr
quote:
But don't argue in favor of removing 100+ year old monuments that aren't offensive or doing any harm by using taxpayer dollars.
bossypantsPosted on 3/7/17 at 1:13 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
Are there any circumstances in which you would support states leaving the union?
Of course.
They're all of the apocalyptic variety. That's too vague of a question to have a definitive answer.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 1:14 pm to ballscaster
quote:
False equivalency. Not engaging.
It's a valid question. Where does it stop? Where does the removal of historical items stop?
quote:
They're all of the apocalyptic variety.
Like having the economy of your state/region completely collapsed because of someone in Washington D.C. forcing you to do something that you don't want to? Regardless of what you believe in today and the nature of the beast back then, that was the reality.
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 1:16 pm
Posted on 3/7/17 at 1:16 pm to rmnldr
quote:
No one is forcing you to.
Never said anyone was.
quote:
don't argue in favor of removing 100+ year old monuments
I intend to do precisely that.
quote:
that aren't offensive or doing any harm
Slap in the face of the unity of our nation. I take offense to that.
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