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Started By
Message
re: Simple way out of cap hell
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:19 am to mitchleger
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:19 am to mitchleger
If losing a crap load of games led to sure success, the saints' history wouldn't look like it does.
0
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:23 am to SaintEB
"Top 10:
Lawerence
Z Wilson
Lance
Burrow
Tua
Hebert
Murray
D Jones
Baker
Darnold
J Allen
Josh Rosen
Trubisky
Mahomes
Goff
Wentz
Winston
Mariota
5 out of 18 since 2015 considered Studs. Not a good track record and definitely not "most"."
I said most of the top QBS were drafted in the top 10 not all QBS drafted in the top 10 were locks to be all pro. True most starting NFL QBS were not drafted in the top 10. Most of the ones drafted outside the top 10 are mediocre with a few exceptions. If you look at the QB position as a whole - low number of hits versus misses.
I still think we need to draft a QB outside the top 10 because there are no assurances we will ever be in the top 10. Can we get under the cap. Sure we can restructure contracts and add voidable years and keep having this conversation. My point which many seem to miss is - NO free agent QB is leading us to the Super Bowl. so why spend the money. Instead draft QBs until you hit on one and ride Taysom. He is not the permanent solution but neither are any free agents.
Lawerence
Z Wilson
Lance
Burrow
Tua
Hebert
Murray
D Jones
Baker
Darnold
J Allen
Josh Rosen
Trubisky
Mahomes
Goff
Wentz
Winston
Mariota
5 out of 18 since 2015 considered Studs. Not a good track record and definitely not "most"."
I said most of the top QBS were drafted in the top 10 not all QBS drafted in the top 10 were locks to be all pro. True most starting NFL QBS were not drafted in the top 10. Most of the ones drafted outside the top 10 are mediocre with a few exceptions. If you look at the QB position as a whole - low number of hits versus misses.
I still think we need to draft a QB outside the top 10 because there are no assurances we will ever be in the top 10. Can we get under the cap. Sure we can restructure contracts and add voidable years and keep having this conversation. My point which many seem to miss is - NO free agent QB is leading us to the Super Bowl. so why spend the money. Instead draft QBs until you hit on one and ride Taysom. He is not the permanent solution but neither are any free agents.
This post was edited on 2/17/23 at 11:26 am
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:29 am to mitchleger
quote:
Sure we can restructure contracts and add voidable years and keep having this conversation. My point which many seem to miss is - NO free agent QB is leading us to the Super Bowl. so why spend the money. Instead draft QBs until you hit on one and ride Taysom. He is not the permanent solution but neither are any free agents.
Well said.
And I’d take my chance with 6/18 of top 10 being studs (Lawrence is absolutely a stud). They’re essentially all of the elite qbs going forward as well outside of an aging Rodgers.
This post was edited on 2/17/23 at 11:32 am
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:32 am to mitchleger
quote:
NO free agent QB is leading us to the Super Bowl.
honest question, and not being argumentative - but how many though the same when Drew signed?
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:38 am to Thracken13
I think Drew was the rare exception. He was hurt and his team had a 1st round investment in a QB which is why they moved on. I do not see that this year. The raiders moved on and don't have a QB. Drew was also a young player. I do not think this free agent class has any hall of fame QBS in it.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:41 am to mitchleger
We already did the Taysom thing. Only this time we dont have great coach to hide some of his flaws.
Did yall forget Hill constantly turning the ball over?
Did yall forget Hill constantly turning the ball over?
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:43 am to mitchleger
I do not disagree with you, but my point was saying that a FA QB isn't taking you to the SB is false - a very small % of a possibility - but it is hard to say definitively it wont happen.
all it takes is the right player and the right staff to bring it together.
do I think that would happen now - most likely not, but you never know.
all it takes is the right player and the right staff to bring it together.
do I think that would happen now - most likely not, but you never know.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:44 am to mitchleger
I think we would do that if DAs job wasn’t on the line.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 11:56 am to Sauce Castieaux
quote:
We already did the Taysom thing. Only this time we dont have great coach to hide some of his flaws. Did yall forget Hill constantly turning the ball over?
We’re not going to be a super dynamic offense either way with Carmichael running the ship. I’d honestly just focus on drafting some young interior linemen and young legs at RB and just try to ground and pound teams at least this year. At least we’d have an identity besides the dime store version of CSP system. I want us to focus on building both lines and other young cheap talent as much as possible this year.
This post was edited on 2/17/23 at 12:23 pm
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:01 pm to Pauly D
I wonder if some of the posters on the board realize that? No coach with his job on the line will try to lose. Unless they tell him he'd just revert back to DC after a tank. Either way, the team isn't bad enough to tank. Especially the defense.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:03 pm to St Augustine
It honestly seems to be a dead end no matter where we go.
With that being the case may as well compete. Its an easily attainable division. There is really no other way unless we see them trading off some of the established talent.
With that being the case may as well compete. Its an easily attainable division. There is really no other way unless we see them trading off some of the established talent.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:16 pm to Sauce Castieaux
quote:
It honestly seems to be a dead end no matter where we go.
Exactly how I feel. Which is why I feel like the absolute most important thing we can do is NOT make moves that will raise the ceiling minimally in the short term but will have to be stretched out over years before coming off the books. By all means play hard and compete with an eye towards the fact that we’re not chasing a last hurrah with Brees/CSP.
Get under the cap with the fewest possible extensions possible, draft some new physical players and don’t blow our wad on average/slightly above average that will extend this period far longer than it needs to be.
This post was edited on 2/17/23 at 12:20 pm
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:34 pm to mitchleger
I look at this as I don't want the Saints to tank because they may never recover and become the Texans.
Here's what I would like to see happen. I haven't dug in enough to research dead money etc to see the full affect of moving on from these guys. But these are moves I would make.
#1 Move on from Cam and his #1 team cap number of 25 million. I like Cam but he is aging and not producing to that contract anymore.
#2 Cut Andrus Peat and his #4 team cap number of 18 million. How they hell did Peat even get the #4 deal on the Saints. A fb players #1 ability is availability and he cant stay on the field. Time to get out from under that number which is sucking the team down. I think Throckmorton is better at guard anyway and maybe Hurst goes back inside if Penning develops.
#3 Dump Jameis Winston and his #6 on the team cap hit of 15.6 million. The fact that the coaches and the GM even agreed to sign Jameis to that number makes me question who is in charge of the Saints now. That's a big number for someone who ended up being the backup to Andy Dalton.
#4 Trade Taysom Hill and his #7 cap hit of 14 million. Give Sean Payton back his toy and trade Taysom to Denver. I'd rather have players or picks back in exchange for our #2 TE and gadget player that fumbles a lot. I'm sure Sean would love to have him.
#5 Finally move on from Michael Thomas and his #8 cap hit 13 million. The dude has missed two seasons with a hurt ankle after getting pretty good guaranteed money. Unless we actually sign a black QB which would make M. Thomas contribute to this team again, it's time to cut bait. He has stolen from the team and helped create cap hell. Cut him or trade him, I don't care but its time for him to quit counting against the cap with zero production to show for it. If the Saints could somehow guarantee he plays maybe keep him around, but that is far from a guarantee as we have seen for two years.
Again, I didn't research effects of dead money but these 5 moves would free up 85 million in cap space and keep a decent core amount of the team together. Maybe with that space available you actually can make a move on the top free agent QB (Carr this year), and also grab a good WR. Olave is great but I'm not sure he is a NFL #1 receiver. With M. Thomas off the books we could go find a good #1 receiver. Then develop every other position need thru the draft. The Saints have a history of finding decent talent in the draft so hopefully that continues.
And if you strike out on the top free agent QB this year, play another year with Dalton and draft a QB or try again for the top free agent QB next year.
Here's what I would like to see happen. I haven't dug in enough to research dead money etc to see the full affect of moving on from these guys. But these are moves I would make.
#1 Move on from Cam and his #1 team cap number of 25 million. I like Cam but he is aging and not producing to that contract anymore.
#2 Cut Andrus Peat and his #4 team cap number of 18 million. How they hell did Peat even get the #4 deal on the Saints. A fb players #1 ability is availability and he cant stay on the field. Time to get out from under that number which is sucking the team down. I think Throckmorton is better at guard anyway and maybe Hurst goes back inside if Penning develops.
#3 Dump Jameis Winston and his #6 on the team cap hit of 15.6 million. The fact that the coaches and the GM even agreed to sign Jameis to that number makes me question who is in charge of the Saints now. That's a big number for someone who ended up being the backup to Andy Dalton.
#4 Trade Taysom Hill and his #7 cap hit of 14 million. Give Sean Payton back his toy and trade Taysom to Denver. I'd rather have players or picks back in exchange for our #2 TE and gadget player that fumbles a lot. I'm sure Sean would love to have him.
#5 Finally move on from Michael Thomas and his #8 cap hit 13 million. The dude has missed two seasons with a hurt ankle after getting pretty good guaranteed money. Unless we actually sign a black QB which would make M. Thomas contribute to this team again, it's time to cut bait. He has stolen from the team and helped create cap hell. Cut him or trade him, I don't care but its time for him to quit counting against the cap with zero production to show for it. If the Saints could somehow guarantee he plays maybe keep him around, but that is far from a guarantee as we have seen for two years.
Again, I didn't research effects of dead money but these 5 moves would free up 85 million in cap space and keep a decent core amount of the team together. Maybe with that space available you actually can make a move on the top free agent QB (Carr this year), and also grab a good WR. Olave is great but I'm not sure he is a NFL #1 receiver. With M. Thomas off the books we could go find a good #1 receiver. Then develop every other position need thru the draft. The Saints have a history of finding decent talent in the draft so hopefully that continues.
And if you strike out on the top free agent QB this year, play another year with Dalton and draft a QB or try again for the top free agent QB next year.
This post was edited on 2/17/23 at 12:53 pm
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:49 pm to SaintEB
quote:
Might want to do a little research on that.
here you go
Of the QBs that started the most games for each team in 2022
65% were 1st round picks (21)
of those 15 were picked in the top ten (47%)
As for Studs. I think there are 6 in the nfl, Hurts, Allen, Burrow, Lamar Jackson, Herbert, Mahomes. of those all but one was drafted in the 1st round (hurts) and 4 out of 6 were in top ten (66%) which constitutes as most. now this is just my opinion but I even made a handy dandy spread sheet for this.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:51 pm to PoppaD
quote:
Move on from Cam and his #1 team cap number of 25 million
Would still have the #1 cap hit, it would just be $23M
quote:
Cut Andrus Peat and his #4 team cap number of 18 million.
Would still be #4, just at $16M
quote:
Dump Jameis Winston and his #6 on the team cap hit of 15.6 million.
Drops him from 6th to 10th w a $11M cap hit
quote:
Trade Taysom Hill and his #7 cap hit of 14 million.
Keeps him at 7th w a new cap hit of $13.8M
quote:
Finally move on from Michael Thomas and his #8 cap hit 13 million.
Because of his restructure, moving him bumps his cap hit to $26M for a new #1.
Even if you keep MT, the cap savings from your 1-4 would be $8.3M in savings. Move MT and you are now at $4.5M less cap space than before you started these moves
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:52 pm to mitchleger
If I’m not mistaken, doesn’t Hills contract have escalators that gets him over 20 million a year if he becomes a full time qb?
Paying Hill double his salary is not the way out of cap hell.
Might as well keep Winston since we are paying him guaranteed salary next year.
Paying Hill double his salary is not the way out of cap hell.
Might as well keep Winston since we are paying him guaranteed salary next year.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 12:59 pm to saints5021
quote:
Bad teams have millions in dollars in cap space to spend on overpriced FAs and continue to suck.
Jags had a ton of cap space blew it on a bunch of mid level free agents like Kirk, sure looked like they didn’t have fun in the playoffs while we sat home….
This post was edited on 2/17/23 at 1:00 pm
Posted on 2/17/23 at 1:01 pm to Weekend Warrior79
Thanks for looking into the actual affects on the cap with the moves I wanted. Well shite moving on from those guys doesn't make a difference.
Damn that sucks how much crap money the Saints have on the books.
I used to think Loomis was a hell of a NFL GM, but seeing the Peat contract, Jameis contract, Taysom contract, etc makes me realize he isn't. He's been throwing money at the wrong guys and making it worse.
It probably should be tank time and clear out cap space for the future, but I'm not sure the Saints recover from that anytime soon. Underhill had a an interesting tweet that the Front office doesn't think the Saints financials work unless they win. It didn't sound like a team ready to bite the bullet and fix its cap issues.
Damn that sucks how much crap money the Saints have on the books.
I used to think Loomis was a hell of a NFL GM, but seeing the Peat contract, Jameis contract, Taysom contract, etc makes me realize he isn't. He's been throwing money at the wrong guys and making it worse.
It probably should be tank time and clear out cap space for the future, but I'm not sure the Saints recover from that anytime soon. Underhill had a an interesting tweet that the Front office doesn't think the Saints financials work unless they win. It didn't sound like a team ready to bite the bullet and fix its cap issues.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 1:52 pm to mitchleger
quote:
Most stud QBs are drafted in the top 10.
Posted on 2/17/23 at 1:53 pm to SaintEB
quote:
Point is QB is a crap shoot.
While that is true to an extent, being in position in the right year can be close to a guarantee. I don’t necessarily think that applies to any QBs this year, but it’s a crap shoot like you said so it’s possible one or more wind up very good. Who really expected Brock Purdy to play as well as he did?
There’s other years where it’s obvious though. Any LSU fans really surprised Burrow is a stud in the league? Of course not, most of us fully expected that after watching 2019.
Lawrence isn’t there just yet but he’s got the right coach now, so I think what we saw from him last year is the tip of the iceberg. He too is going to be very good for a long time in the NFL, which was easy to see if you watched these guys in college.
The questions now are, who IS the next one like that and can we be in position to get him? Or will we draft someone lower that’s a question mark and hopefully get lucky. Whoever takes Hendon Hooker is in that latter situation this year imo.
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