- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: NFC champs shirts- What the heck is up with that?
Posted on 1/30/10 at 9:57 pm to flybynight
Posted on 1/30/10 at 9:57 pm to flybynight
Doesn't really matter. After next Sun. You'll be able to pick one up for 75% off.
1
Posted on 1/30/10 at 9:59 pm to guttata
quote:
Doesn't really matter. After next Sun. You'll be able to pick one up for 75% off.
as lomg as the Colts are 85% off.
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:03 pm to efrad
quote:
Those phrases mean the exact same thing, as long as you understand that the words "NFC" and "Conference" are both separately modifying "Champions" and that "NFC" is NOT modifying "Conference."
NFC, (which is an abbreviation for National Football Conference) and Conference are both modifiers. The Saints are Champions of the NFC or according to you the NFC Conference.
Both statements mean the same thing, one is redundant, the other is not.
quote:
The Cardinals are in the NFC, and they were champions, therefore they are technically champions of the NFC
So you flunked grammar and logic
The Cardinals were not Champions of the NFC in 2009, they are Champions of the NFC West Division. So your assertion if factually incorrect. So they are a Champion that plays in the NFC, but not NFC champs.
quote:
In high school, I was the Latin Club President, and I am an American citizen, therefore at one time I was actually a president of America.... one of the many.
No you were not, you were a President, not the President of America. That is a specific position. This is now a different argument since you are talking about omitting key details, not being redundant, saying you were Latin Club club President is not wrong, its just redundant, like NFC Conference or LSU University etc
Clearly I need to have a few more beers
This post was edited on 1/30/10 at 10:13 pm
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:06 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
Who ever designed that probably gets cash from an ATM Machine
And uses their PIN Number...
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:13 pm to LSUTANGERINE
I know this is pointless, but...
Guys, "ATM machine" is grammatically correct b/c "ATM" is an adjective and "machine" is a noun. "ATM" tells you what kind of machine it is. There is no such thing as an "AT" machine. It is an ATM machine. You can also simply say an "ATM" - in this instance, you are using ATM as a noun. This is fine, and preferable b/c it avoids the current confusion!
The same goes for "NFC conference champions". They are not the "NF conference champions", because there is no such thing as the "NF". NFC is an adjective that tells you what kind of conference champion they are. It is TECHNICALLY correct, but awkward and confusing.
Guys, "ATM machine" is grammatically correct b/c "ATM" is an adjective and "machine" is a noun. "ATM" tells you what kind of machine it is. There is no such thing as an "AT" machine. It is an ATM machine. You can also simply say an "ATM" - in this instance, you are using ATM as a noun. This is fine, and preferable b/c it avoids the current confusion!
The same goes for "NFC conference champions". They are not the "NF conference champions", because there is no such thing as the "NF". NFC is an adjective that tells you what kind of conference champion they are. It is TECHNICALLY correct, but awkward and confusing.
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:19 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
NFC, (which is an abbreviation for National Football Conference) and Conference are both modifiers. The Saints are Champions of the NFC or according to you the NFC Conference.
Both statements mean the same thing, one is redundant, the other is not.
"NFC Conference" is most certainly redundant, because clearly "NFC" is modifying "Conference" in that statement.
However, "NFC Conference Champions" can be parsed two different ways, one of which is redundant and the other not.
The first is [NFC][Conference Champions] where "Conference Champions" is a phrase independent of "NFC." This is correct. The type of champion is a Conference Champion, and the conference in question is the NFC. Therefore, [NFC][Conference Champion]
The second is [NFC Conference][Champions], which is redundant, because "NFC Conference" contains the word "conference" twice.
quote:
So you flunked grammar and logic :lol
Actually, I've always done very well in grammar.
quote:
The Cardinals were not Champions of the NFC in 2009, they are Champions of the NFC West Division. So your assertion if factually incorrect. So they are a Champion that plays in the NFC, but not NFC champs.
It's all about how you parse it. The Cardinals were NFC champs, although they weren't THE NFC Champs.
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:21 pm to Mr Charisma
ATM, PIN and NFC are all abbreviations so yes, you would not say AT Machine or NF Conference, but ATM Machine and NFC Conference are redundant. NFC and Conference on the T-Shirt in the OP post are both modifiers for Champions.
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:26 pm to H-Town Tiger
Oh DEAR GOD.
Do not follow an abbreviation with a word that repeats the final term in the abbreviation (ATM location not ATM machine location)" (Alred, Brusaw, and Oliu). There is no "technically" correct version. It's wrong, period.
There guys. Thread/
Do not follow an abbreviation with a word that repeats the final term in the abbreviation (ATM location not ATM machine location)" (Alred, Brusaw, and Oliu). There is no "technically" correct version. It's wrong, period.
quote:
LINK
There guys. Thread/
This post was edited on 1/30/10 at 10:30 pm
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:28 pm to flybynight
quote:
Alred, Brusaw, and Oliu
is a style guide, not grammar law.
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:29 pm to efrad
quote:
It's all about how you parse it. The Cardinals were NFC champs, although they weren't THE NFC Champs.
Yes and no. The Cardinals were champions this year and they are in the NFC. So the Cardinals are Champions in the NFC, but not Champions of the NFC. The first statement does not have enough information, the second is incorrect.
quote:
However, "NFC Conference Champions" can be parsed two different ways, one of which is redundant and the other not.
I agree, saying the Saints are Conference Champs of the NFC is not redundant, saying they are NFC Conference Champs is, the order is important.
I think in the case of this T-Shirt the word conference is added to fill space so the top and bottom of the logo are balanced.
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:32 pm to efrad
Efad, I love you man.
What is the handbook of technical writing based off of?
8th edition, page 178 firmly discusses this. You DO NOT write the redundancy term, period.
besides....there is not one grammar law. Some English usage rules vary among authorities. For example, the Associated Press (AP) Stylebook is a guide specific for news media and journalists while The Chicago Manual of Style (CMS) is used by many book publishers and writers. The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation leans towards usage rules in CMS along with other authoritative texts and does not attempt to conform to the AP Stylebook, which differs significantly in some aspects.
However, what they DO agree on is what to do with acronyms....and that is to leave the redundant term absent.
*wipes sweat away from brow*
What is the handbook of technical writing based off of?
8th edition, page 178 firmly discusses this. You DO NOT write the redundancy term, period.
besides....there is not one grammar law. Some English usage rules vary among authorities. For example, the Associated Press (AP) Stylebook is a guide specific for news media and journalists while The Chicago Manual of Style (CMS) is used by many book publishers and writers. The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation leans towards usage rules in CMS along with other authoritative texts and does not attempt to conform to the AP Stylebook, which differs significantly in some aspects.
However, what they DO agree on is what to do with acronyms....and that is to leave the redundant term absent.
*wipes sweat away from brow*
This post was edited on 1/30/10 at 11:02 pm
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:34 pm to flybynight
quote:
Oh DEAR GOD.
hey what else is there to do on a Saturday night when you are trying to save money and take it easy for the weekend since the next 2 are going be crazy and your girlfriend is out of town besides argue anonymously on the internet over trivial non-sense
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:36 pm to H-Town Tiger
H-Town:
good point
good point
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:46 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
So the Cardinals are Champions in the NFC, but not Champions of the NFC. The first statement does not have enough information, the second is incorrect.
The second is not in correct, but instead also does not have enough information.
Would you agree that the Cowboys, Vikings, Saints, and Cardinals are the four divisional champions of the NFC?
Would you agree that more ambiguously speaking, the Cowboys, Vikings, Saints, and Cardinals are the four champions of the NFC?
And, thus, it would follow that the Cardinals were one of the champions of the NFC?
Yes, the Cardinals are champions of the NFC.
But they are not THE champions of the NFC.
quote:
I agree, saying the Saints are Conference Champs of the NFC is not redundant, saying they are NFC Conference Champs is, the order is important.
You are contradicting yourself now.
If you believe "Conference Champs of the NFC" is not redundant, then you are conceding that "Conference" is necessary and that "Champs of the NFC" is too ambiguous. Why would you think it's too ambiguous if there was only one Champ of the NFC, the Saints? You either agree that the Cardinals are champs of the NFC or not.
Furthermore, there is zero difference between "Conference Champions of the NFC" and "NFC Conference Champions" as far as redundancy goes if you're parsing the phrases correctly. I don't see how you can disagree with that.
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:48 pm to flybynight
quote:
there is not one grammar law.
So why did you post a quote from a grammar book as proof you were correct?
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:49 pm to flybynight
The debate rages on.
This has been the most intelligent, well-thought out thread here in quite some time.
This has been the most intelligent, well-thought out thread here in quite some time.
Posted on 1/30/10 at 10:56 pm to Carface
I expected this thread to go about 3/4, comma, three-quarters, 75% seventy five percent, at best. period
Posted on 1/30/10 at 11:00 pm to efrad
Efrad.... lol
I'm saying it's what people use to say it's correct :)
I'm looking back at the responses....the SB can't get here soon enough.
I'm saying it's what people use to say it's correct :)
I'm looking back at the responses....the SB can't get here soon enough.
Posted on 1/30/10 at 11:02 pm to LSUTANGERINE
quote:
I expected this thread to go about 3/4, comma, three-quarters, 75% seventy five percent, at best. period
lol thread/
Posted on 1/30/10 at 11:36 pm to efrad
quote:
Would you agree that the Cowboys, Vikings, Saints, and Cardinals are the four divisional champions of the NFC?
Yes.
quote:
Would you agree that more ambiguously speaking, the Cowboys, Vikings, Saints, and Cardinals are the four champions of the NFC?
No. They are the Champs of the NFC East, North, South and West respectively saying other wise is either incorrect or misleading.
quote:
You are contradicting yourself now. If you believe "Conference Champs of the NFC" is not redundant, then you are conceding that "Conference" is necessary and that "Champs of the NFC" is too ambiguous
Maybe it is redundant, or at least poorly woreded but its not the same as using a word immediately following the abbreviation for that same word. If you just say the Saints are conference champs you may not be giving enough detail, so you could add NFC or National to clarify, depending on the audience and their knowledge. Saying the Saints are champs of the NFC or NFC champs is all that is necessary.
Saying the machine in the corner is an ATM is not redundant, saying the ATM machine is in the corner is redundant.
Page 3 of 4
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News