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re: Balance The Saints Cap

Posted on 2/7/14 at 6:24 pm to
Posted by MISSIPSAINT
Magee
Member since Feb 2013
438 posts
Posted on 2/7/14 at 6:24 pm to
Because Jenkins sucks. We need more int's from that position and better overall coverage in the middle of the field and deep half. You want average play keep Jenkins our corners where on an island especially after vaccarrow got hurt.
This post was edited on 2/7/14 at 6:45 pm
Posted by bbrownso
Member since Mar 2008
8985 posts
Posted on 2/7/14 at 6:59 pm to
Restructure:
Drew Brees - one of the big areas the Saints can save money dropping his base salary from 9+ million to 955,000; causes some issues in 2014 and 2015 though

Cut:
Will Smith - obvious and essential for the Saints to get under the cap
Jabari Greer - older cornerback coming off a severe injury
Darren Sproles - while in RL the Saints really want him back, seems a little slower and will be in his 9th year in the league in 2014
Austin Johnson - think the Saints will churn the bottom of the roster
Charles Dawkins - churn candidate like Austin Johnson

June 1st cut:
Brodrick Bunkley - another older player; for his amount of snaps, the saints can probably fine a younger (more importanly cheaper NT or let Hicks spent more snaps there)
Lance Moore - salary for his production is outrageous
David Hawthorne - done to save problem for later years; also heard that the Saints want to give Reddick more playing time in 2014

Trade:
Nick Toon - could use a change of scenery and the Saints could use another draft pick

Franchise:
jimmy Graham - Obvious

Resign/Tender:
Tom Johnson - young and a chance to improve
Jed Collins - good player who knows the system
Joe Morgan should get his shot to return from injury
Rafael Bush - deserves a shot to make the team
Bryce Harris - Saints need tackles

This leaves the Saints with the following cap room:
2014 - $11,481,288
2015 - $16,230,074 (should have a bump up (~7 mil) due to new CBS Thursday and Saturday night games)
2016 - $41,212,368

Posted by xxKylexx
Louisiana
Member since Nov 2011
4039 posts
Posted on 2/7/14 at 8:35 pm to
Restructure

1. Drew Brees
2. Roman Harper
3. Jabari Greer

Cut

1. Will Smith
2. Pierre Thomas
3. Darren Sproles

June 1st Cut

1. David Hawthorne
2. Lance Moore

These 8 moves alone have put us 20 million under the cap.
Posted by partywiththelombardi
Member since May 2012
11592 posts
Posted on 2/7/14 at 9:56 pm to
Cut
Will Smith
Austin Johnson
Charles Hawkins
Terrance Frederick
Derek Dimke
Derrius Brooks
Adrian Davis
Senio Kelemete
Andy Tanner
Ty Neshke
Chris Givens
Travarius Cadet

All these players can be replaced by UDFA

This gives us plus 3.7 in plus cap not including
Restructures/Designated Cuts
Greer
Harper
Moore
Thomas
Sproles

I would leave these for 2015 Restructures as money for Galette and Jordan
Brees
Grubbs
Evans
Bunkley
Colston
Posted by bonethug0108
Avondale
Member since Mar 2013
12690 posts
Posted on 2/7/14 at 10:22 pm to
quote:

Austin Johnson
Charles Hawkins
Terrance Frederick
Derek Dimke
Derrius Brooks
Adrian Davis
Senio Kelemete
Andy Tanner
Ty Neshke
Chris Givens
Travarius Cadet


Huge problem with you and the other guy cutting these players is that you aren't saving money. These are all minimum salary players that will have to be replaced to get back to 53.

So all y'all are doing is trimming the roster down below what it should be now to give the appearance of savings that you will lose later when getting back to 53.

At best you saved $450,000 by replacing Kelemete($75,000), Neshke($75,000), Givens($150,000), and Cadet($150,000) with rookies, if that's what you'd do. You save nothing with Kelemete and Neshke and only $75,000 each with Givens and Cadet if you get a 1 year player instead.

You save nothing with the other guys because they are making what a rookie would make.

So really all you did to save money with that first group is to cut Smith, still leaving us over the cap.

And sure you possibly could replace them with UDFAs, but those guys are these guys with no guaranty that they are even as good and would be a year behind in the system.

That's why you have two things in the offseason: Top 51 rule and 90 man rosters. The Top 51 only takes into account the highest 51 salaries during the offseason and the 90 man roster allows you to keep these guys and bring in new ones to compete and find the best ones.

And don't forget the minimum salary rule that says all minimum salary players with 2+ accrued years count as a 2 year accrued player on the cap($570,000 this season). Only rookies($420,000) and 1 year accrued players($495,000) would cost (slightly)less.

And just a note on Jordan(and Ingram) that some may forget is that they both have a team option 5th year that will be relatively cheap(especially compared to what Jordan would get per year).
This post was edited on 2/7/14 at 10:55 pm
Posted by bonethug0108
Avondale
Member since Mar 2013
12690 posts
Posted on 2/7/14 at 10:44 pm to
Speaking of minimum salaries, I noticed a bug where the veteran minimum salary benefit rule isn't being applied in the program.

This doesn't affect the current roster outside of Drescher, who should count $160,000 less. But if you want to sign Meachem, Haralson, McCown, etc. as a vet minimum player, they are counting more than they should.
Posted by Zoombop
Westbank
Member since Feb 2013
987 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 12:32 am to
Wow, still trying to wrap my head around this thing, but here's what I got.

Cut:
Will Smith

June 1 Cuts:
Bunkley
Harper
Greer
Moore

Restructure:
Evans
Lofton
Morestead

Extended:
Sproles (2 years, no new money, is this realistic?)

Re-sign:
Graham, 6 years $58mil w/ $22mil guaranteed
Strief, 3 years $12mil, $4mil guaranteed (he might take this hometown discount)
Collins, 2 years for a little more than veteran minimum
Meachem
Haralson
McCown
Shayne Graham, all brought back for 1 year on vet min deals

RFA Tenders:
Morgan, 2nd round tender
Bush, 2nd round tender
Harris, ERFA tender

Did not re-sign:
Jenkins
De la Puente
Herring
Dawson
Humber
Carr
Vilma
Brown
Johnson
Wade
Toone

I think either Streif or DlP will price themselves out of the Saints range. I doubt both of them will be back. Jenkins just hasn't worked out for us and I think another team will be willing to pay a little more for his services, banking that he can finally "unlock his potential".

I leave the team at around $270,000 under the cap and that's without a full understanding of how to do extensions and free agent signings. Also, I left a few prime restructure candidates on the table for the draft class or if the team sees an opportunity to make a splash (however small it may be) in free agency. Needless to say though, they're going to be cutting it very close. I highly doubt we'll see a substantial contract signing on a player that was not with the team last year. Should be fun!
Posted by signalizer
IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER
Member since Aug 2011
162 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 12:46 am to
Make a June 1 cut on Greer and save 4.5 mil.

Did all that you did and I am 7,904,857 under the cap.

Hate to see him go out like he did. But an aging corner on a surgically repaired wheel is not a good option to have in a passing league.
Posted by bonethug0108
Avondale
Member since Mar 2013
12690 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 12:53 am to
Pretty good stuff there Zoom.

Good call on signing Collins for (close to)the minimum instead of the RFA tender(but is this allowed?). Saves about half a mil. Maybe this could work for Johnson too.

Strief's deal seems reasonable. I think he'll be in the $3.5-$4.5 mil range regardless(this is RT, not LT after all).

From all indications, Graham is looking at over $10 mil a year so $58 mil may be a bit low but still a good estimation of the range.

Overall that's some very good work.
Posted by bonethug0108
Avondale
Member since Mar 2013
12690 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 12:57 am to
quote:

Make a June 1 cut on Greer and save 4.5 mil.


Yeah I'd like to keep Greer unless we have a FA corner in mind, but he'd have to take a big pay cut for that to happen.

As for the other stuff, that was just a quick job to see what was possible. Plenty of stuff that I would do different, like using a couple of June 1st cuts possibly, a couple of pay cuts/cheap extensions, trying not to redo Brees this year, etc.

Edit:
Just as a test run, I managed to resign all off our free agents except for Vilma(old), Meachem(old + Morgan), Brown(bad), and DLP(probably going to get overpaid).

I left Jimmy on the tag and did not touch Brees. Strief is getting $3.6 mil this year(3 year/12.75 mil) and Jenkins $3 mil(5 year/$20 mil).

Morgan and Bush got 2nd round tenders, while all the other free agents took minimum.

I restructured Evans, Grubbs, and Colston. I only cut 2 guys, Smith and Bunkley(June 1st cut).

Harper, Greer, Moore, Sproles(new 3 year deal), and Thomas(new 3 year deal) took pay cuts. To make it simple I dropped them to minimum but gave them what I thought were appropriate bonuses.

Just to give you an idea these are their cap numbers: Harper($4.5 mil), Greer($3.7 mil), Moore($3 mil), Sproles($2.4 mil), and Thomas($2 mil). So it's not like I stiffed them to make the numbers work.

After all of this we are a little over a mil under the cap. 2 cuts, 3 restructures, 5 pay cuts and resigned pretty much everyone.

Downside is we are $11.5 mil over next year, but that's why I saved Brees. Restructuring him alone would put us about $6 mil under the cap, which is low for what it will actually be with the tv deal.

So we'd really be about $10 mil+ under. And the only big UFAs we have would be Graham, Bush, Morgan, Robinson, and Butler(Jordan and Ingram have the team 5th year option). So we are actually in much better shape than it may seem.

We all know Smith is gone, so in this scenario we really only lost Bunkley and kept everyone else, free agents included.
This post was edited on 2/8/14 at 11:33 am
Posted by goatmilker
Castle Anthrax
Member since Feb 2009
64478 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 8:45 am to
Nice job Zoom. Bone too.

I can see Greer cut on June 1st even if he is re-signed later I don't see how they would pay him still rehabing.
Cutting Bunk is a toss-up to me.
Moore will get cut if he doesn't agree to a restructure.

quote:

Graham, 6 years $58mil w/ $22mil guaranteed

If the Saints guarantee more of the contract than usual would JC play for less than 10M a year? He wants to stay with Brees and that could be for 3 more years. Would he except a 3-4 year deal that gives him time, career wise, to move on if Brees is gone and is loaded with guaranteed money?
Maybe so!

Streif offer a 2 year deal 6M with 4.5m guaranteed to induce him to stay.

Of the cuts I would keep Toon(one more shot in camp) and Johnson.

Good leg work guys.
This post was edited on 2/8/14 at 8:49 am
Posted by dj30
New Orleans
Member since Feb 2006
28733 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 9:16 am to
These were my moves.....
Cut Will Smith
June 1st cut Jabari
June 1st cut Bunkley
Cut Pierre
Franchise Jimmy
Still with 4.4 million in cap room.
This post was edited on 2/8/14 at 9:17 am
Posted by Zoombop
Westbank
Member since Feb 2013
987 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 10:41 am to
The Toone I was referring to in my post was Tim Toone haha. As for Tom Johnson, I figured I would just not tender him as a RFA and let him test the waters. I think he'll be 29 when the season starts, and we may be looking to bring in some more young guys/open up more time for Glenn Foster and Tyrunn Walker.
Posted by bonethug0108
Avondale
Member since Mar 2013
12690 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 11:24 am to
quote:

Cutting Bunk is a toss-up to me.


For me also, and I only see him getting cut if it's as a June 1st cut because otherwise it isn't worth it.

He's really good at what he does, but the downside is that we rotate a lot so he is overpaid when compared to his playing time.

Zoom, on Johnson I agree that letting him go makes way for more Walker/Foster but both of those guys kept getting injured. That's not to say they will again, but that's where having someone like Johnson is beneficial.

Unless we find someone as good or better, I think bringing him back for the minimum will only help.

I think later today I'll do 2 more, one of what I would do and another of what I think the Saints will do. The first 2 test runs(and lots of tinkering around) has let me see what we can and can't do and what we can do is probably a lot more than what most would think.
Posted by LSUtigers111
Member since Apr 2011
2069 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 12:29 pm to
Cut smith and harper. bam.
Posted by partywiththelombardi
Member since May 2012
11592 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 12:48 pm to
My reasoning(realistic or not) to scrap the bottom of the roster(players most of us have never seen play a meaningful snap) was to give temporary relief to the cap.

Many have noted that the June 1st cuts do give us the most return on several cap figure players...however by taking that route to maximize cap returns you will miss the first free agency period.

By scrapping some of these players along with restructures you will be afforded the opportunity to purse some immediate impact players that you will need to make a run at the Superbowl...IDC who our 54th-65th best players are.

UDFA making League Minimum will be added back to the cap after FA and the Draft when your June 1st cuts have been taken off the roster.

Considering our past with UDFA being given a chance to play and make a name for themselves here...alot of rookies consider us already a destination hot spot if they miss the draft. By cleaning out the PS and creating jobs you can then oversign UDFA and have them all compete for open positions...

ETA....forgot about the 51 rule...
This post was edited on 2/8/14 at 12:55 pm
Posted by partywiththelombardi
Member since May 2012
11592 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 12:50 pm to
I would assume like Ivory, Strief, and countless other saints who stood out to the staff that is worth anything the team would not simply cut them for the sake of saving NFL nickels and pennies.
Posted by blueslover
deeper than deep south
Member since Sep 2007
22792 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 1:06 pm to
Most everyone can understand what it will cost to keep a player under contract as is. Then many see what can be saved by cutting them. What most don't consider enough is what cap hit it will be to cut them. them.

Bunkley is hitting another level of money-

KEEP= $6.1mil cap hit the next 3 yrs
CUT Savings= $1.3mil
CAP HIT if cut= $4.8mil

Throwing $4.8mil of cap down the drain to save $1.3mil wouldn't seem likely to me.

Better in 2015
KEEP= the same
CUT Savings= $2.9mil
CAP HIT if cut= $3.2

Then- $2.9mil of cap saved while taking a $3.2mil hit. Much more palatable

He becomes easily cuttable in 2016
KEEP= the same
CUT Savings= $4.2mil
HIT= only $1.6mil

With each of those years the Saints negotiating leverage increases to possibly get him to a revised lower amount deal. That is, he isn't a $6mil a yr player. But unless the Saints can seriously threaten a cut he has no impetus to deal.
Posted by bonethug0108
Avondale
Member since Mar 2013
12690 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 1:39 pm to
But those numbers change if Bunkley's a June 1st cut.

I agree I would never just outright cut him this year without that designation, but the money that can be saved this year and next with it is enough to consider it.

If he's a June 1st cut he saves us $4.5 mil this year with only $1.6 mil in dead money. That's a 3 to 1 ratio in favor of cutting him.

And if you project out to next year if he's a June 1st cut this year it's still about a 1 to 1 cap savings to dead money ratio in 2015.

So the question becomes do you keep a rotational player at that price tag, or do you think Jenkins and Hicks can take on his role for a lot less?
This post was edited on 2/8/14 at 1:45 pm
Posted by Zoombop
Westbank
Member since Feb 2013
987 posts
Posted on 2/8/14 at 1:44 pm to
I didn't think cutting Bunkley would be feasible this year, but once I saw the difference between a regular cut and a June 1 cut, I think he's gone without a doubt. The only thing that might save his spot is if he's willing to take a massive paycut to stick around.

Jenkins will continue to get better, and deserves to be the starter at NT. Couple that with potential draft picks, FAs, or UDFA acquisitions on the d-line, and I think the handwriting is on the wall for Bunk.
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