- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
Pink Floyd - the death of collaboration (long OP)
Posted on 8/28/17 at 11:32 am
Posted on 8/28/17 at 11:32 am
I know purists may disagree with my definitions - for I treat "the classic" period of Pink Floyd as running from Meddle through The Final Cut, inclusive.
Even if we consider Atom Heart Mother, then the analysis is still valid (maybe more so).
So, AHM had an extended track on Side 1 - all 4 members of the post-Syd band were credited as well as outside collaborators. On Side 2 - Waters, Wright and Gilmour have a solo composition each, and a final collaboration (instrumental) by all 4 members closes the album.
Meddle has 6 tracks, 3 of which are credited to the entire band, including Echoes which is all of Side 2. 2 of the remaining 3 tracks were Waters and Gilmour, with only San Tropez being a Waters only composition.
Obscured by Clouds is their repackaged soundtrack effort - unusual for the Floyd, the longest track comes in under 6 minutes and it only has 1 Gilmour and 1 Waters composition. The other 8 tracks were all collaborations, including 2 by Wright and Waters and 2 credited to everyone.
DSOTM has 10 tracks, 3 of which were written by Waters alone (Money, Brain Damage and Eclipse) - and Waters is responsible for all of the lyrics on the album.
WYWH saw Waters write all the lyrics again, with 2 solo compositions out of 5 tracks. Now, the extended Shine On tracks were credited to the non-drummers, and there is one of the three (IMHO) definitive collaborations between Gilmour and Waters on the title track.
Animals marks the first of what I consider: "Roger Waters, with special guests, Pink Floyd" albums.
All Roger, except for Dogs (clearly the best track on the album) which is a collaboration with Gilmour, marking the second definitive one for the pair.
The Wall - no doubt about it every bit the masterpiece that DSOM and WYWH were, but recall that Wright - the soul of Pink Floyd, IMO - was fired by Waters then rehired as a side man. Setting the film soundtrack aside, the album itself was a double monster with 26 tracks - Waters has sole songwriting credit on 22 of them, singing at least part of the lead vocals on 23 of 26. Waters was never a great singer, and his voice was becoming very brittle and shrill at this point. The gem single of the album remains Comfortably Numb, the final in my list of 3 definitive collaborations between Gilmour and Waters.
The Final Cut is a special case, in that Waters intended it to be a solo album, but the record company convinced him to make it a Pink Floyd album (for the money, of course). Only Not Now John has Gilmour writing or singing any lead vocals.
An astonishing reversal from just DSOM forward, where it became increasingly about Waters' vision, not only for the band, but of the world.
Pink Floyd was at its best (post-Syd) as a collaboration between the non-drummers or, even better, all 4. Best substitute for that was a Gilmour and Waters collaboration. I think it is clear, in hindsight, Waters moved away from the band and ultimately out. He's done interesting things since then (notably Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking and Radio KAOS), but nothing to even compete with his best work with Gilmour, Wright and Mason in Pink Floyd.
Even if we consider Atom Heart Mother, then the analysis is still valid (maybe more so).
So, AHM had an extended track on Side 1 - all 4 members of the post-Syd band were credited as well as outside collaborators. On Side 2 - Waters, Wright and Gilmour have a solo composition each, and a final collaboration (instrumental) by all 4 members closes the album.
Meddle has 6 tracks, 3 of which are credited to the entire band, including Echoes which is all of Side 2. 2 of the remaining 3 tracks were Waters and Gilmour, with only San Tropez being a Waters only composition.
Obscured by Clouds is their repackaged soundtrack effort - unusual for the Floyd, the longest track comes in under 6 minutes and it only has 1 Gilmour and 1 Waters composition. The other 8 tracks were all collaborations, including 2 by Wright and Waters and 2 credited to everyone.
DSOTM has 10 tracks, 3 of which were written by Waters alone (Money, Brain Damage and Eclipse) - and Waters is responsible for all of the lyrics on the album.
WYWH saw Waters write all the lyrics again, with 2 solo compositions out of 5 tracks. Now, the extended Shine On tracks were credited to the non-drummers, and there is one of the three (IMHO) definitive collaborations between Gilmour and Waters on the title track.
Animals marks the first of what I consider: "Roger Waters, with special guests, Pink Floyd" albums.
All Roger, except for Dogs (clearly the best track on the album) which is a collaboration with Gilmour, marking the second definitive one for the pair.
The Wall - no doubt about it every bit the masterpiece that DSOM and WYWH were, but recall that Wright - the soul of Pink Floyd, IMO - was fired by Waters then rehired as a side man. Setting the film soundtrack aside, the album itself was a double monster with 26 tracks - Waters has sole songwriting credit on 22 of them, singing at least part of the lead vocals on 23 of 26. Waters was never a great singer, and his voice was becoming very brittle and shrill at this point. The gem single of the album remains Comfortably Numb, the final in my list of 3 definitive collaborations between Gilmour and Waters.
The Final Cut is a special case, in that Waters intended it to be a solo album, but the record company convinced him to make it a Pink Floyd album (for the money, of course). Only Not Now John has Gilmour writing or singing any lead vocals.
An astonishing reversal from just DSOM forward, where it became increasingly about Waters' vision, not only for the band, but of the world.
Pink Floyd was at its best (post-Syd) as a collaboration between the non-drummers or, even better, all 4. Best substitute for that was a Gilmour and Waters collaboration. I think it is clear, in hindsight, Waters moved away from the band and ultimately out. He's done interesting things since then (notably Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking and Radio KAOS), but nothing to even compete with his best work with Gilmour, Wright and Mason in Pink Floyd.
This post was edited on 8/30/17 at 9:46 am
Posted on 8/28/17 at 12:40 pm to Ace Midnight
The classic Floyd, Meddle thru Animals ( IMHO) was great because of the input from all of the bandmembers. The band toured heavily and played WYWH and Animals songs for several years before recording. The bootleg recordings from this era were freaking great!! It gave the band a lot of time to develop lyrics, solos, breakdowns ect. and those are the songs that really shine ( IMHO ).
When Rog took over ( Wall and Final Cut) the band just lost any soul they had. Wall and F Cut are largely done by studio cats with a few overdubs by Gilmour. RW might have a lot of the writing credits, but the magic was dolled out by the other bandmates quite often. If you removed the guitars, keys and drums from WYWH and Animals, it would be rubbish. I'm not a Roger hater, but come on, you play the bass....... he owes 99% of his success to RW DG and NM. I won't even bring up Syd.
When Rog took over ( Wall and Final Cut) the band just lost any soul they had. Wall and F Cut are largely done by studio cats with a few overdubs by Gilmour. RW might have a lot of the writing credits, but the magic was dolled out by the other bandmates quite often. If you removed the guitars, keys and drums from WYWH and Animals, it would be rubbish. I'm not a Roger hater, but come on, you play the bass....... he owes 99% of his success to RW DG and NM. I won't even bring up Syd.
Posted on 8/28/17 at 1:15 pm to randybobandy
quote:
When Rog took over ( Wall and Final Cut) the band just lost any soul they had.
I've always maintained that Wright was the soul of Pink Floyd - as Roger fired him for The Wall recording sessions, and has only expressed a little regret about that over the years, I think our opinions are figuratively in line, 100%.
quote:
I'm not a Roger hater, but come on, you play the bass....... he owes 99% of his success to RW DG and NM.
I think he owes 100% to Pink Floyd - no one would have ever shown up to hear him (poorly) sing about his Marxist ideology without the body of work that was Pink Floyd. He was and is a great lyricist - one of "classic" rock's best, but he had an ego that went beyond that for sure.
This post was edited on 8/28/17 at 1:17 pm
Posted on 8/28/17 at 1:32 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
I think he owes 100% to Pink Floyd - no one would have ever shown up to hear him (poorly) sing about his Marxist ideology without the body of work that was Pink Floyd.
I think that applies to Gilmour as well. His solo stuff doesn't compare to his body of work with PF.
quote:
He was and is a great lyricist - one of "classic" rock's best, but he had an ego that went beyond that for sure.
It always cracks me up to read the credits to the film "Delicate Sound of Thunder". The "Original Pig Concept" is credited to Waters.
Posted on 8/28/17 at 3:10 pm to Spock's Eyebrow
quote:
I think that applies to Gilmour as well. His solo stuff doesn't compare to his body of work with PF.
No question. The only credit I grant on "the rest" is that they stuck it out with Pink Floyd and produced at least 3 nice studio albums and the Pulse live stuff which is incredible.
If anything, Waters has the most credible solo career of the bunch.
They were far better together than apart.
Posted on 8/28/17 at 8:05 pm to Ace Midnight
Based on quotes in various PF bios, combined with what my own ears are telling me, I do think Roger tightened the reins on Animals and The Wall, however I also think he was stingy about giving proper credit where it was due. I don't care what anyone says, there's no way Roger "wrote" Rick's various keyboard passages on "Sheep", and he deserved a co-writing credit.
Once upon a time, conventional wisdom said if you came up with the lyrics & basic melody, you pretty much got credit as the sole writer....but what about a song (like "Sheep", for example) that's 2-3 times longer than the average song, and has just as much (or more) instrumental work as vocal work?
IMO alot of this "Roger is Pink Floyd" talk went into overdrive when the Momentary Lapse & Division Bell albums had a fair amount of outside writing credits...however, according to the interviews I've read over the years, it was more a matter of Gilmour being generous (to a fault, in some cases) sharing the songwriting wealth, something that Roger was too stubborn about. Both Ezrin & Gilmour have stated that The Wall, while Roger's vision, would've fallen flat if it wasn't for other (uncredited) people molding it into the final product. As it was, Gilmour & Ezrin had to fight tooth & nail just to get some writing table scraps on the album...
Once upon a time, conventional wisdom said if you came up with the lyrics & basic melody, you pretty much got credit as the sole writer....but what about a song (like "Sheep", for example) that's 2-3 times longer than the average song, and has just as much (or more) instrumental work as vocal work?
IMO alot of this "Roger is Pink Floyd" talk went into overdrive when the Momentary Lapse & Division Bell albums had a fair amount of outside writing credits...however, according to the interviews I've read over the years, it was more a matter of Gilmour being generous (to a fault, in some cases) sharing the songwriting wealth, something that Roger was too stubborn about. Both Ezrin & Gilmour have stated that The Wall, while Roger's vision, would've fallen flat if it wasn't for other (uncredited) people molding it into the final product. As it was, Gilmour & Ezrin had to fight tooth & nail just to get some writing table scraps on the album...
This post was edited on 8/28/17 at 8:08 pm
Posted on 8/28/17 at 8:28 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Wright was the soul of Pink Floyd
Hellakige
Wright covered acres and acres of their sound. R.I.P.
Posted on 8/28/17 at 9:49 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
I think he owes 100% to Pink Floyd
BUT DAMMIT, THAT'S MY PIG UP THERE! THAT'S MY WALL!!!!
Posted on 8/28/17 at 10:30 pm to vandelay industries
Waters is an incredible lyricist and writer, but I agree that the band was better when collaborating more often than when not. The Wall is awesome, but nothing that they've created after has been worthwhile. The Final Cut is bad. And post-Waters Floyd is just a different band with an 80's synth-fest. Just as Floyd with Syd was a very different band, but much better than the band after Waters left.
Gilmour's solo albums have been duds for me. They sound like a worse version of post-Waters Floyd. However I feel like Waters' latest solo album is very good, considering his age.
I'm glad I got to see Waters last month...at least a key piece of the band, and here some Floyd tunes. It was mind blowing. Much like seeing Paul McCartney a few years ago.
Gilmour's solo albums have been duds for me. They sound like a worse version of post-Waters Floyd. However I feel like Waters' latest solo album is very good, considering his age.
I'm glad I got to see Waters last month...at least a key piece of the band, and here some Floyd tunes. It was mind blowing. Much like seeing Paul McCartney a few years ago.
Posted on 8/29/17 at 7:33 am to SUB
quote:
The Wall is awesome, but nothing that they've created after has been worthwhile. The Final Cut is bad.
This is what I'll ask most fair-minded Floyd fans - remove all the "Roger only" tracks from The Wall and you still have a number of great songs. Take all the collaborations off The Wall and you're left with something that is worse than The Final Cut.
And I think I gave Roger plenty of leeway - The Final Cut sounding like a Roger solo effort isn't Roger's fault - that was his intention for the project. I like it for what it is - Roger's rage against Margaret Thatcher - now Roger and I are probably 180 degrees, politically - I was a big Thatcher fan. Reagan, too.
Part of Roger's rage comes from losing his (crazy, lefty) father in WWII. We got some great music out of it, so that's something positive, right?
Posted on 8/29/17 at 7:40 am to vandelay industries
quote:
I don't care what anyone says, there's no way Roger "wrote" Rick's various keyboard passages on "Sheep", and he deserved a co-writing credit.
The way songwriting credit works - instrumentalists that do not alter the chords structure or melody, that is considered "arrangement" and not composition. That's why drummers rarely get any songwriting credit, unless they're in generous bands or they have other instrument skills/songwriting ability.
Not to go too far astray, but some prominent folks are famous for doing what Roger did - greedily blocking out others from credit on their own compositions, but because of their lyrical ability, they are able to "add a word, get a third (of the lyric royalties)" - looking real hard at you Don Henley (and the late, great Glenn Frey).
It was clear after WYWH that Roger was going to have it his way or not at all. We still got Animals (mainly Dogs) and The Wall, which had some nice collaborations - including one of my candidates for GOAT classic rock song - Comfortably Numb.
And they all got stupidly rich along the way, including Wright.
This post was edited on 8/29/17 at 7:41 am
Posted on 8/29/17 at 9:18 am to Ace Midnight
I understand what you're saying...but Rick's keyboards practically carry the song, and I'm not so sure if Roger coached him to play that way, hence the deserving of a co-credit. Like i'd said before, once a song starts reaching the 8, 9, 10 and whatever minute mark, it'd be fair to re-evaluate what the songwriting "rules" are, since the results were obvious that Rick & Dave brought alot more than they're getting recognition for. If Roger brought his ideas to the table, but he had Gilmour's ego, there's no doubt Dave & Rick names would've appeared more on the credits. Conversely, if Gilmour had Roger's ego, then AMLOR and Division Bell probably would've been dominated with solely Gilmour/Samson credits...
And yes, some bands are certainly more generous than others...I mean, bless Michael Anthony, but I doubt he was a major player in regards to Van Halen's songwriting, despite his name being credited on all the songs (well, until he sold his rights anyway). I guess the point in all my rambling is often there's more (or less) to it than what it says in black & white. I'm not disagreeing or disputing what you're saying...I'm just adding my random $.02 to the topic, that's all lol...
And yes, some bands are certainly more generous than others...I mean, bless Michael Anthony, but I doubt he was a major player in regards to Van Halen's songwriting, despite his name being credited on all the songs (well, until he sold his rights anyway). I guess the point in all my rambling is often there's more (or less) to it than what it says in black & white. I'm not disagreeing or disputing what you're saying...I'm just adding my random $.02 to the topic, that's all lol...
This post was edited on 8/29/17 at 9:20 am
Posted on 8/30/17 at 12:31 am to Ace Midnight
As a Floyd fan who has and loves every album, this is my favorite thread ever. 
Posted on 8/30/17 at 1:50 pm to vandelay industries
quote:
I mean, bless Michael Anthony, but I doubt he was a major player in regards to Van Halen's songwriting, despite his name being credited on all the songs
You know, on first blush I might agree with you, but Anthony was a music major - obviously the brothers were raised by a legitimate world class musician and I don't think that Eddie's ego was of a sort to just let credit go willy nilly. Dave was probably writing a lot of the lyrics, but I always got the impression that those early efforts, certainly pre-1984 the band was a full on collaboration. I know that Anthony was primarily responsible for the backing vocals while he was there - almost 100% of them.
quote:
If Roger brought his ideas to the table, but he had Gilmour's ego, there's no doubt Dave & Rick names would've appeared more on the credits. Conversely, if Gilmour had Roger's ego, then AMLOR and Division Bell probably would've been dominated with solely Gilmour/Samson credits...
I don't disagree with this at all.
Some bands are "bands" - some are leaders and sidemen. Some transition from one to the other. I think the Floyd clearly did that - maybe the biggest band ever to do that.
This post was edited on 8/30/17 at 1:52 pm
Posted on 8/30/17 at 10:46 pm to Ace Midnight
Sorry in advance for potentially derailing things, but from my understanding, DLR & EVH wrote the lion's share, and AVH & Anthony pretty much got a free ride. Only difference is, AVH is still getting the free ride, and Anthony had to practically sign his life away in order to tour with the band in '04. Pretty foolish decision IMO, but at the same time, he probably thought EVH was too much of a mess to continue beyond '04, so he just took what he thought would be VH's final payday...
Kinda reminds me of Waters' treatment of Wright near the end of his first tenure (although admittedly, it's possible he'd deserved it by then, considering Gilmour didn't exactly welcome him back with open arms), but at least he (Wright) kinda got the last laugh, since he was the only one who got paid for the Wall dates...
Kinda reminds me of Waters' treatment of Wright near the end of his first tenure (although admittedly, it's possible he'd deserved it by then, considering Gilmour didn't exactly welcome him back with open arms), but at least he (Wright) kinda got the last laugh, since he was the only one who got paid for the Wall dates...
This post was edited on 8/30/17 at 10:48 pm
Posted on 8/31/17 at 8:40 am to vandelay industries
quote:
but from my understanding, DLR & EVH wrote the lion's share
I don't doubt that. And drummers with songwriting credits with little else to suggest it are probably benefitting from generous credit. However, Van Halen's case is somewhat unique - Alex famously started on the guitar and Eddie on drums (as kids) and switched due to anecdotally funny family squabbles. Both the VH brothers were trained in music by their father. Like I said, Anthony studied music in college and is an excellent backing singer. So, there could be more there than meets the eye.
quote:
Kinda reminds me of Waters' treatment of Wright near the end of his first tenure (although admittedly, it's possible he'd deserved it by then, considering Gilmour didn't exactly welcome him back with open arms), but at least he (Wright) kinda got the last laugh, since he was the only one who got paid for the Wall dates...
Well - keep in mind there were 2 separate things going on - for all their popularity with the stoner/acid crowds, there was never much evidence of drug problems in the Floyd, except Syd (for however short a period of time his brain was completely fried and he was still active in the band) and Rick. Roger candidly admits to a couple of acid trips, but other than that, no evidence of serious drug or alcohol abuse by Roger or David, excepting marijuana, at least on a prolonged basis. I think David had a coke problem between Ginger and Polly.
Rick on the other hand was a raging alcoholic and coke head at times. Maybe that contributed to it, but ultimately Roger fired him because, as he puts it, "I was listening to other people about who should be doing this and that in the band." That's the closest I've heard him come to admitting that it was a mistake to fire Rick about the music part. There is never any question about the music.
As I've always understood it, David DGAF about Roger's perception that Rick wasn't carrying his weight, musically (songwriting, mainly), but their relationship was damaged (and had to be repaired) due to Rick's addiction issues from about Wish You Were Here onward - (even into the post-Roger era into the early 1990s).
This post was edited on 8/31/17 at 8:46 am
Posted on 8/31/17 at 8:58 am to Ace Midnight
I may be in the minority, but I can't stand Roger Waters. Albums such as The Final Cut and most of The Wall is almost unbearable. Its like he intentionally attempts to be too weird.
Pink Floyd is my GOAT band, fwiw.
Pink Floyd is my GOAT band, fwiw.
Posted on 8/31/17 at 9:08 am to The Dudes Rug
quote:
and most of The Wall is almost unbearable
I don't go that far, but I'd be fine without most (not all) of the Roger-only songs from The Wall - that's for sure.
I think I implied earlier in the thread that you can cobble together a very decent album from just the songs that feature Gilmour or both on lead vocals. Although Gilmour only collaborated in writing Young Lust, Run Like Hell and Comfortably Numb - the Wall would be wholly forgotten without his guitar and vocals on tracks like Mother, Another Brick in the Wall (Pt. 2), Goodbye Blue Sky, Hey You, etc.
Posted on 8/31/17 at 10:04 am to Ace Midnight
Agreed, I don't think Dave GAF about Roger's perception of Rick. However, he didn't give Rick a handout either, and he (Rick) definitely had to earn his way back into the band as a "legit" member. I got the impression that Roger handled Rick on a personal level, while Dave handled it on a professional level. Not suggesting Dave & Rick never connected (he did take him along on his solo tour, after all)...but yeah, even Rick admitted he fell off his game after getting ousted, so he had to do some serious woodshedding to regain Dave's confidence in him...
As for VH (sorry, lol)...once VH closes the books for good, I'd be interested if Michael finally decides to say something about the whole soap opera. Unless he burnt a major bridge that no one wants to talk about in public (unlikely, but not impossible...see Bun E Carlos & Cheap Trick, there's supposedly some personal shite that's staying out of the headlines), he's been a total saint about the whole ordeal....
As for VH (sorry, lol)...once VH closes the books for good, I'd be interested if Michael finally decides to say something about the whole soap opera. Unless he burnt a major bridge that no one wants to talk about in public (unlikely, but not impossible...see Bun E Carlos & Cheap Trick, there's supposedly some personal shite that's staying out of the headlines), he's been a total saint about the whole ordeal....
Posted on 8/31/17 at 11:14 am to vandelay industries
This thread has turned into nirvana for me. Van Halen AND Pink Floyd! Now if someone can comment on Jimmy Page's underage girlfriend in 1977, or the story behind Royal Orleans from the Presence album this thread would be perfect. Ace and Vandelay always give great info. 
Popular
Back to top


4








