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Message
re: House of the Dragon S1E7: “Driftmark”--Official Thread
Posted on 10/7/22 at 8:10 am to DestrehanTiger
Posted on 10/7/22 at 8:10 am to DestrehanTiger
I mean you are sort of pivoting the conversation here, which is fine, but the argument that poster made was that bastards are literally the lowest and least regarded thing in Westeros, and that is absolutely and unequivocally not true. At almost every stop in Martin's history you have sides and often even a plurality of people just accepting bastards as leaders, or looking to them as the rightful inheritor or leader.
But again, this also has precedent in this world, as we saw with Joffrey despite everyone knowing the truth, most just accepted it. Furthermore, her children being bastards is largely a red herring. The contention did not begin there, it began from Alicent's jealousy and paranoia about Rhaenyra, not her kids, which wouldnt even come for years later.
Apologies on this as I will say no more on this part except that it unequivocally demonstrated how bastards can very much be seen as having strong claims and highly respected.
Well, I mean, the whole reason most of us have abandoned a neutral posture is cause this sort of no longer holds true. There was no evidence Rhaenyra would execute Alicent's children, in fact, as the other episode demonstrated, she was willing to bind their houses and offer a co-succession plan after her reign. Alicent slapped it away and escalated.
quote:
The blacks have not done that. They are still passing off a lie that nobody believes.
But again, this also has precedent in this world, as we saw with Joffrey despite everyone knowing the truth, most just accepted it. Furthermore, her children being bastards is largely a red herring. The contention did not begin there, it began from Alicent's jealousy and paranoia about Rhaenyra, not her kids, which wouldnt even come for years later.
quote:
3. Jon Snow - Admittedly, I stopped watching when the show passed the books. So, I have no idea what they did with him in GOT.
Apologies on this as I will say no more on this part except that it unequivocally demonstrated how bastards can very much be seen as having strong claims and highly respected.
quote:
I am most often arguing that there wasn't a ton of choice in all of this once Aegon as born.
Well, I mean, the whole reason most of us have abandoned a neutral posture is cause this sort of no longer holds true. There was no evidence Rhaenyra would execute Alicent's children, in fact, as the other episode demonstrated, she was willing to bind their houses and offer a co-succession plan after her reign. Alicent slapped it away and escalated.
1
Posted on 10/7/22 at 8:12 am to DestrehanTiger
To add to the Blackfyre Rebellion the king himself had been helping to spread rumors that his son and heir was actually a bastard fathered by his brother Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. He seemed to do this purely out of spite and knew full well the ramifications of legitimizing all of his bastards. There is good reason why he is widely regarded as the worst Targ king.
I would argue that Viserys like Aegon IV is creating a volatile situation that cannot be maintained without war. He isn't doing it purposely out of spite but rather he is turning a blind eye to reality. Of course the Greens and others are contributing as well to their own advantage but he is the king and his focus shou ld be on securing peace and prosperity for the real.
I would argue that Viserys like Aegon IV is creating a volatile situation that cannot be maintained without war. He isn't doing it purposely out of spite but rather he is turning a blind eye to reality. Of course the Greens and others are contributing as well to their own advantage but he is the king and his focus shou ld be on securing peace and prosperity for the real.
Posted on 10/7/22 at 8:23 am to Bronc
quote:
Apologies on this as I will say no more on this part except that it unequivocally demonstrated how bastards can very much be seen as having strong claims and highly respected.
No worries. I originally tried to avoid everything, but now I know that is pointless. GRRM is never going to finish his books, and he will likely change a lot from the show anyway. I appreciate your being cautious with it, though.
Also, reading just that little bit from Reb about the Blackfyre rebellion makes me excited to read The World of ASOIAF again. I am almost done my reread of Fire & Blood. I just love the world and the house stories so much.
Posted on 10/7/22 at 8:23 am to QC Reb
Viserys original sin was marrying Alicent instead of Laena, but things dont happen in a vacuum.
People keep framing this whole dispute like it is the people rising up to contest Rhaenyra, or some semi-altruistic concern over norms and at her bastards(which is mostly a red herring about the following succession) but literally it's just this one mid-major House that was stupidly elevated out of their own manipulations that is driving the fomentation. One they could easily suppress thru Alicent binding the Houses.
And frankly, at this point, the cours eof correction Viserys should have done is executed Alicent for treasonous conspiracy and attempted murder of the future Queen, jailed his Hand and taken lands and titles from any Hightower conspiring against the crown....but if they did that of course we wouldnt have a show and this would just be a footnote in Martin's history lol
People keep framing this whole dispute like it is the people rising up to contest Rhaenyra, or some semi-altruistic concern over norms and at her bastards(which is mostly a red herring about the following succession) but literally it's just this one mid-major House that was stupidly elevated out of their own manipulations that is driving the fomentation. One they could easily suppress thru Alicent binding the Houses.
And frankly, at this point, the cours eof correction Viserys should have done is executed Alicent for treasonous conspiracy and attempted murder of the future Queen, jailed his Hand and taken lands and titles from any Hightower conspiring against the crown....but if they did that of course we wouldnt have a show and this would just be a footnote in Martin's history lol
This post was edited on 10/7/22 at 8:27 am
Posted on 10/7/22 at 8:26 am to Bronc
quote:
it's just this one mid-major House that was stupidly elevated out of their own manipulations that is driving the fomentation.
I'd say it's more of a mid-major son. Hightower was a super strong house back then that was probably the most powerful house in the Reach. Tyrell just happened to help Aegon, so they became Warden of the Reach or whatever. However, you are right. It's the second son of a strong house trying to advance his legacy.
Posted on 10/7/22 at 8:28 am to DestrehanTiger
I wasnt clear with my context, but I agree and that was what I meant, not that whole House only got where they were historically thru manipulation, but that the present arrangement and dynamic with Alicent/Rhaenyra came about thru Hightower, or more specifically, Otto's ambitions/manipulations
Posted on 10/7/22 at 8:42 am to QC Reb
quote:
I get that you support certain characters but you are taking it weirdly personal.
Bronc is a politard. He see's everything through the dim lens of marxism.
Posted on 10/7/22 at 8:43 am to Bronc
Bronc The Feminist continues to talk out of his arse.
From Storm of swords chapter 55 (jon snow's inner monologue):
chapter 73 of the same book:
i'm giving everyone facts straight from the source material while Bronc The Feminist brings anecdotal blabber to the table.
keep stacking those L's though.
From Storm of swords chapter 55 (jon snow's inner monologue):
quote:
A couple of them saw Jon looking down from atop the King's Tower and waved up at him. Others turned away. They still think me a turncloak. That was a bitter draft to drink, but Jon could not blame them. He was a bastard, after all. Everyone knew that bastards were wanton and treacherous by nature, having been born of lust and deceit.
chapter 73 of the same book:
quote:
Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous.
i'm giving everyone facts straight from the source material while Bronc The Feminist brings anecdotal blabber to the table.
keep stacking those L's though.
Posted on 10/7/22 at 8:52 am to Boodis Man
Jon was legitimized by Robb Stark - What you're referencing isn't a truth, it's an inner monologue from a character with deep shame (driven by his father's wife) about being a bastard.
Posted on 10/7/22 at 8:55 am to joshnorris14
Also later in the show it is shown that Jon Snow wasn’t a bastard but a true born targ heir so not the same at all.
Posted on 10/7/22 at 9:07 am to joshnorris14
quote:
Jon was legitimized by Robb Stark - What you're referencing isn't a truth, it's an inner monologue from a character with deep shame (driven by his father's wife) about being a bastard.
you just proved my point. he has deep shame about being a bastard... hmmm why is that? if you read the books, then you know he gets shite from everyone about being a bastard not just catelyn stark
i swear the average IQ in this thread must be in the double digits or something
Posted on 10/7/22 at 9:09 am to Boodis Man
quote:
hmmm why is that?
quote:
driven by his father's wife
Posted on 10/7/22 at 9:11 am to Boodis Man
quote:
i swear the average IQ in this thread must be in the double digits or something
The irony of this comment.
quote:
you just proved my point. he has deep shame about being a bastard... hmmm why is that? if you read the books, then you know he gets shite from everyone about being a bastard not just catelyn stark
And?
Again, bastards have been legitimized in the realm and have been given credence. Lord Roose Bolton legitimized Ramsay without issue.
Posted on 10/7/22 at 9:16 am to BluegrassBelle
Right, almost everywhere you look there is evidence of bastards being legitimized in the realm.
Are they of the same regard as true noble bloodlines? No, obviously. But there are countless cases of them succeeding and gaining legitimacy in all manner of ways. It’s not this irredeemable scarlet letter there is no storied precedent of being overcome or ignored. In some cases even, being favored
Are they of the same regard as true noble bloodlines? No, obviously. But there are countless cases of them succeeding and gaining legitimacy in all manner of ways. It’s not this irredeemable scarlet letter there is no storied precedent of being overcome or ignored. In some cases even, being favored
Posted on 10/7/22 at 9:18 am to joshnorris14
no, bastards feel shame because they are born of lust and lies and are viewed as wanton and treacherous in that world as i've already proven.
keep trying though
keep trying though
Posted on 10/7/22 at 9:20 am to 225rumpshaker
quote:
Also later in the show it is shown that Jon Snow wasn’t a bastard but a true born targ heir so not the same at all.
What?
*****spoilers ahead for non-GOT watchers******
He was most definitely a bastard, same as Rhaenyra’s kids.
In fact, the parallels are pretty strong. Rhaegar secretly had an affair with a Baratheon and Jon Snow was the outcome.
He is half Targ, same as Rhaenyra’s kids. Same as Gendry, who also had a claim but was Robert’s bastard
This post was edited on 10/7/22 at 9:21 am
Posted on 10/7/22 at 9:24 am to Bronc
The fact that Cersei murdered Robert's infant bastards to protect against a claim from them if it was found out that her children were not King Roberts implies they are not seen as vile, disgusting things.
Posted on 10/7/22 at 9:25 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
And?
Again, bastards have been legitimized in the realm and have been given credence. Lord Roose Bolton legitimized Ramsay without issue.
getting legitimized does not change their perceived nature...it only affects law and inheritance.
Ramsay is still viewed with scorn whether he is a snow or bolton.
amazing that i actually have to type this out
Posted on 10/7/22 at 9:28 am to Boodis Man
Cersei didn't kill Stannis or Gendry, Robert's first and second heirs.
She killed Robert's bastards because she recognized them as the bigger threat
She killed Robert's bastards because she recognized them as the bigger threat
Posted on 10/7/22 at 9:34 am to BluegrassBelle
question from someone hasn't read any of the books: without spoiling "if possible".
is the guy who at some point becomes the night king one of the characters in this show?
is the guy who at some point becomes the night king one of the characters in this show?
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