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re: LeBron James went 13/14 tonight: 31/8/8
Posted on 2/5/13 at 7:34 pm to shel311
Posted on 2/5/13 at 7:34 pm to shel311
quote:
But where do you draw the line, on that?
You can multiply career PER by total minutes played to get a career value. Then, you can use logs in order to prevent the number from being 239483295472394723947.
At a certain point, I guess you have to factor the difference in quality of play versus. Fortunately, the vast majority of the elite players have very lengthy careers, since they are really fricking good at basketball. Even Magic and Bird played each at least ten quality years.
It is definitely somewhat of a judgment call, but it is a two-way street. You have to determine if the peak was worthwhile and long enough to jump them over players with longer and still very successful careers.
quote:
I'll take 9 years of best ever play over 18 years of average play.
Me too. The discrepancy is too big. It is more along the lines of Kobe/Wades and Barkley/Malones where there can be a semi-realistic debate to who is better.
1
Posted on 2/5/13 at 7:46 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
Honestly, I think you minutes method is kind of silly. A person who plays 18 years over 15 years will rack up many extra minutes, but that doesn't necessarily make their careers any better. Or Even 16 years vs 15 years.
For example, Kobe has already played 3000 more minutes than Jordan played. Once you've played say over 12 years in the league, it's all pretty negligible. I'm willing to take into account Kareem's high level of play at 38-40 into account for his greatest, but I don't think that makes him a better player than Magic Johnson, who had a much shorter career.
For example, Kobe has already played 3000 more minutes than Jordan played. Once you've played say over 12 years in the league, it's all pretty negligible. I'm willing to take into account Kareem's high level of play at 38-40 into account for his greatest, but I don't think that makes him a better player than Magic Johnson, who had a much shorter career.
Posted on 2/5/13 at 7:47 pm to jturn17
quote:To be fair, my first post in this thread I said if you can sustain that peek performance for a long time.
You claim to prefer peak performance. How long does a peak have to be? TMac had a peak that was as good as anybody ever with a 30 PER. I doubt you'd consider him one of the GOATs.
TMAC didn't sustain for what I'd consider a long time.
That being said, I also think TMAC is pretty underrated for what he was able to do for those few years as well.
And also, I get that it's to be taken within context, but my example was moreso to show that it's not a blanket statement, and my question was legit, where do you draw that line?
This post was edited on 2/5/13 at 7:48 pm
Posted on 2/5/13 at 7:52 pm to jturn17
quote:
Would you say a guy who averages a 15 PER, which is average, for 18 years had a better career than a guy who for 9 years averaged 30 PER, Lebron /Mj level?
I'll take 9 years of best ever play over 18 years of average play.
Everything should be taken within context. You claim to prefer peak performance. How long does a peak have to be? TMac had a peak that was as good as anybody ever with a 30 PER. I doubt you'd consider him one of the GOATs.
you both have good points and I suspect might even argue the other guy's point of view on a different day.
FWIW Tmac was absolutely filthy good for a few years - he's in the discussion for biggest unfulfilled potential in recent basketball history IMO
Posted on 2/5/13 at 7:54 pm to molsusports
quote:Nah, he VKC and I have had this same debate probably multiple times.
you both have good points and I suspect might even argue the other guy's point of view on a different day.
That being said, i agree with you, both sides have valid points. Neither is right.
Not sure why we even debate it...but why not?
Posted on 2/5/13 at 7:59 pm to jturn17
quote:
Honestly, I think you minutes method is kind of silly.
Obviously, it is not even close to perfect or maybe not even good. I just made it up there on the spot.
I just feel that a per-minute basis as the most advanced metric is problematic when not all minutes are equal even in a single game. Durant should be even more rewarded with his league-leading minutes. It is reflected in the fact that he leads the league in EWA and VA (I think), which is part of the reason I like those stats.
quote:
A person who plays 18 years over 15 years will rack up many extra minutes, but that doesn't necessarily make their careers any better. Or Even 16 years vs 15 years.
If their contributions are significant, then that is an extra three or one year that they can help out the team. I do not see why you need to wash that away.
quote:
Once you've played say over 12 years in the league, it's all pretty negligible.
Pretty much. Kobe is essentially the first one to be producing at this high of a level so deep in his career.
Posted on 2/5/13 at 8:01 pm to shel311
quote:
Not sure why we even debate it...but why not?
It is fun debating with posters with opinions that you respect.
quote:
That being said, i agree with you, both sides have valid points. Neither is right.
Pretty much an endless argument.
Posted on 2/5/13 at 8:11 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
Pretty much. Kobe is essentially the first one to be producing at this high of a level so deep in his career.
This is largely true IMO
His production is down from what it was but is still remarkable. The only other guy who I can think of who was still a game changing force after 16 plus seasons in teh NBA is Karl Malone (granted Malone was a legit all star until he was almost 40 and Kobe got to the NBA earlier by skipping college)
Jordan had his years in college, one year off for baseball and retired from the Bulls after his 13th NBA season.
John Stockton played 19 years in the NBA and was still effective when he finally retired - but not close to the same player he was 6 or 7 years earlier
Posted on 2/5/13 at 9:31 pm to molsusports
To be fair, I agree with Shel more than Vick, but I was just trying to make the overall point that context is what's ultimately important in these discussions.
Also as an aside
Once you take into account his defense, he really isn't producing at that high a level.
Also as an aside
quote:
Pretty much. Kobe is essentially the first one to be producing at this high of a level so deep in his career.
Once you take into account his defense, he really isn't producing at that high a level.
Posted on 2/5/13 at 9:56 pm to Nonetheless
6>1
Posted on 2/5/13 at 10:01 pm to PrivateJoker
Jim Loscutoff has 7 championships.
Do you know who that is? cause I dont.
But 7>6 so I guess he is better than MJ.
On another note..
Bill Russell has 11 and MJ has 6 and both were the best players on their teams right?
So Bill has 5 more than MJ and MJ has 5 more than Lebron. So Bill is better than MJ and MJ is better than Lebron. So Bill = GOAT?
also. I AM NOT ARGUING that Lebron is > MJ but to use championships as your argument is fricking dumb.
You Probably think Ben Roethlisburger and Eli Manning are better than Aaron rodgers, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees.
Do you know who that is? cause I dont.
But 7>6 so I guess he is better than MJ.
On another note..
Bill Russell has 11 and MJ has 6 and both were the best players on their teams right?
So Bill has 5 more than MJ and MJ has 5 more than Lebron. So Bill is better than MJ and MJ is better than Lebron. So Bill = GOAT?
also. I AM NOT ARGUING that Lebron is > MJ but to use championships as your argument is fricking dumb.
You Probably think Ben Roethlisburger and Eli Manning are better than Aaron rodgers, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees.
This post was edited on 2/5/13 at 10:03 pm
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