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Message
re: 11/12 NBA Thread
Posted on 11/12/14 at 12:24 pm to Dr. Shultz
Posted on 11/12/14 at 12:24 pm to Dr. Shultz
You guys are not taking into account that free throws take up a possession. Free throws are a "shot" and they aren't counted in PPS.
For example...
A player shoots 6 for 10 and scores 20 points. Pretty efficient, right? 20 points on 10 shots.
He also went 8 for 14 in free throws.
If you count the possessions he was fouled and went to the line, that's 7 "field goal attempts" that aren't really counted.
So he actually took 17 shots to get 20 points if you count his trips to the line. Still efficient, but much different than saying "only 10 shots".
Another example...
A player can shoot 5 for 8 and scored 25 points. WOW, 25 points on 8 shots?? Super efficient!
But what if he went 15 for 36 shooting free throws?
That would essentially be 25 points on 26 shots.
To summarize... PPS doesn't take into account free throws. If it did, you would see how the attempts are much closer to the points scored.
Why free throws are not counted as an "attempt" I have no idea.
For example...
A player shoots 6 for 10 and scores 20 points. Pretty efficient, right? 20 points on 10 shots.
He also went 8 for 14 in free throws.
If you count the possessions he was fouled and went to the line, that's 7 "field goal attempts" that aren't really counted.
So he actually took 17 shots to get 20 points if you count his trips to the line. Still efficient, but much different than saying "only 10 shots".
Another example...
A player can shoot 5 for 8 and scored 25 points. WOW, 25 points on 8 shots?? Super efficient!
But what if he went 15 for 36 shooting free throws?
That would essentially be 25 points on 26 shots.
To summarize... PPS doesn't take into account free throws. If it did, you would see how the attempts are much closer to the points scored.
Why free throws are not counted as an "attempt" I have no idea.
This post was edited on 11/12/14 at 12:28 pm
1
Posted on 11/12/14 at 12:37 pm to SwaggerCopter
quote:
Yes it is. It's why Harden has such an awesome true shooting percentage.
Harden has an awesome true shooting percentage?
this is news to me.
I just looked up his true shooting percentage and it's rated as 17th among SG.
Obviously the season is still young so I'm sure it will go up.
and if someone scores 25 on 5-10 shooting or something like that, obviously thats awesome. But I'm more referring to the games were Harden goes 5-23 or 3-27 and still somehow gets 25+ points.
Also.. I almost made another thread but noticed it was touched on in here.
WTF is up with D Rose? This mother fricker.. "OMG I need rest so I will be able to walk at my sons graduation bc Basketball is such a violent sport and I may be crippled"
Dude.. does anyone like this cat? First he misses 2x as much time as other players with similar injuries and now this? Dude is a huge bitch.
This post was edited on 11/12/14 at 12:39 pm
Posted on 11/12/14 at 12:48 pm to Dr. Shultz
quote:How do you know if that's awesome? You don't have enough information.
and if someone scores 25 on 5-10 shooting or something like that, obviously thats awesome.
They might have gone 10 for 40 from the free throw line...
This post was edited on 11/12/14 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 11/12/14 at 12:53 pm to PrimeTime Money
Dude. Just stop. Everyone in this thread, including other Rockets fans think you are wrong.
The first step in recovery is admitting you're wrong
The first step in recovery is admitting you're wrong
Posted on 11/12/14 at 12:55 pm to Dr. Shultz
They're all wrong, too.
Care to refute my post or are you just going to plug your ears and make noises with your mouth hoping it'll go away?
Care to refute my post or are you just going to plug your ears and make noises with your mouth hoping it'll go away?
Posted on 11/12/14 at 12:57 pm to PrimeTime Money
I'll just ignore you from now instead. You're allowed to have you're own opinion and everyone else who knows basketball is allowed to have a completely different opinion.
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:04 pm to Dr. Shultz
quote:That's what I thought. You can't debate what I said so you make up an excuse and hide behind insults.
I'll just ignore you from now instead.
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:08 pm to PrimeTime Money
You are shifting your argument now. The idea that a player scoring 25 points on 25 shots in one game, five games, a month, or 82 games is anything other than inefficient is ludicrous. It certainly isn't a "benchmark" for anything positive.
I'm not sure anybody is arguing that PPS is a perfect metric either, as it is often skewed toward big men to begin with.
I'm not sure anybody is arguing that PPS is a perfect metric either, as it is often skewed toward big men to begin with.
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:10 pm to PrimeTime Money
Dude you get to take free throws bc someone fouls you. they are FREE points. If you make them, you are rewarded with points but if you miss them it doesn't matter bc they are FREE. That is why they are not considered a "shot" and are calculated as a completely different statistic known as free throw percentage.
You can factor free throw points into points per possession if you would like, but not points per shot (which is what we are discussing).
You can factor free throw points into points per possession if you would like, but not points per shot (which is what we are discussing).
This post was edited on 11/12/14 at 1:13 pm
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:13 pm to Dr. Shultz
They are "free" because nobody is guarding you. They still take up a possession. It doesn't matter whether your shot attempt was a jumper or a couple of free throws. 
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:17 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
They are "free" because nobody is guarding you.
No way jose, groundbreaking stuff here.
quote:
They still take up a possession.
Yes they do, but we aren't talking about possessions are we?
quote:
It doesn't matter whether your shot attempt was a jumper or a couple of free throws.
Obviously it does bc they are two completely different things?
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:19 pm to PrimeTime Money
I'm not sure what you are getting at with the FT discussion...you even admitted yourself that it is advantageous for a player to be at the line as long as he is roughly a 50% shooter, a baseline that includes the vast majority of the league.
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:21 pm to Dr. Shultz
We are talking about efficiency.
2 points is 2 points whether it was from the line or the elbow.
When you ignore free throws, you are completely ignoring a huge facet of the game, especially when talking about how efficient a player is.
2 points is 2 points whether it was from the line or the elbow.
When you ignore free throws, you are completely ignoring a huge facet of the game, especially when talking about how efficient a player is.
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:24 pm to brgfather129
My point is that stat-lines like 20 points on 10 shots is deceiving because it completely ignores how many shots were REALLY taken because it doesn't take into account the shots that sent a player to the line.
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:26 pm to PrimeTime Money
Simple question:
Are free throws the most efficient way to score in the NBA?
Are free throws the most efficient way to score in the NBA?
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:28 pm to brgfather129
Yes.
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:28 pm to PrimeTime Money
No one is saying free throws aren't efficient. But they don't make up for missed shots.
By you're definition, a guy who goes 5-15 from the field but goes 10-10 at the free throw line is just as efficient as a guy who goes 5-9 from the field but 10-16 at the free throw line because both guys got 20 points on 25 "shots"
Am I getting this straight?
By you're definition, a guy who goes 5-15 from the field but goes 10-10 at the free throw line is just as efficient as a guy who goes 5-9 from the field but 10-16 at the free throw line because both guys got 20 points on 25 "shots"
Am I getting this straight?
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:30 pm to PrimeTime Money
Then I have no idea what you are arguing against.
Players get the benefit in the efficiency metric of scoring by the most efficient method there is. Unless they are shooting 50% from the line (give or take), they are better off being at the line than using up the possession with a FG attempt.
Players get the benefit in the efficiency metric of scoring by the most efficient method there is. Unless they are shooting 50% from the line (give or take), they are better off being at the line than using up the possession with a FG attempt.
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:31 pm to Dr. Shultz
No because the first guy took 20 shots. The second guy took 17 shots.
Posted on 11/12/14 at 1:34 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
No because the first guy took 20 shots. The second guy took 17 shots.
So... you agree that Kobe Bryant had a shitty night by getting 28 points on 26 shots, or by your definition 28 points on 29 shots because he shot 6 free throws?
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