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Started By
Message
Tax law folks -- quick question about the profession
Posted on 7/22/15 at 11:14 am
Posted on 7/22/15 at 11:14 am
This'll be my last tax question for a while. How beneficial is it for a tax attorney to also have their CPA? I would have to take some accounting classes before I could even sit for the CPA, and just wondering if it is worth the effort
4
Posted on 7/22/15 at 11:26 am to TheOcean
LLM
Posted on 7/22/15 at 12:01 pm to TigerDeacon
Already in the works
Posted on 7/22/15 at 12:05 pm to TheOcean
quote:
I would have to take some accounting classes before I could even sit for the CPA, and just wondering if it is worth the effort
Not worth it at all IMO. CPA exam is such a massive waste of time and effort. 90% of the stuff you learn for the CPA exam is 100% useless in career in tax law. Maybe 95%.
In a tax law firm, CPAs are second class citizens for the most part.
As for earnings, you won't be paid more because you have your CPA if you have a JD and LLM.
An LLM is a must though. I didn't see you asking about that, but I assume you know that is a given that you must have your LLM.
Posted on 7/22/15 at 12:20 pm to Tiger n Miami AU83
That was the exact answer I'm looking for. I'll be fortunate enough to have a top LLM degree
Posted on 7/22/15 at 1:20 pm to TheOcean
I've been around a bit, couple of the big 4 firms, grant, law firm, etc. All in tax law practices.
Posted on 7/22/15 at 1:57 pm to Tiger n Miami AU83
What's the best way to get my foot in the door in a big 4 firm coming from a top LLM program?
Any recommendations on classes to take within the LLM? Or areas to specialize?
Any recommendations on classes to take within the LLM? Or areas to specialize?
This post was edited on 7/22/15 at 1:57 pm
Posted on 7/22/15 at 1:58 pm to TheOcean
Walk in toss your resume on the managing partners desk and say 80k, 7k signing bonus, you'll start a week from Monday.
Posted on 7/22/15 at 2:19 pm to Tiger n Miami AU83
shite, I'd start out at 70k with no signing bonus 
What kind of work do tax lawyers do within the big four? And did you enjoy your time at a big four firm?
What kind of work do tax lawyers do within the big four? And did you enjoy your time at a big four firm?
This post was edited on 7/22/15 at 2:21 pm
Posted on 7/22/15 at 2:25 pm to TheOcean
Ok, here is you serious answer, was busy a few minutes ago.
Specialize in international. Be sure to take a partnership, corporations, and estates and trusts course. I would assume those are part of the core courses though. Take as many tax research courses as you can. Tax research skills are what will eventually get you paid. Again, I would try and specialize in international and take as many international tax and structuring courses as you can.
FTR, I specialize in international and have been doing it for 7 years. Before that I was just core Fed tax groups in the Big 4 which is bread and butter, but nothing special. ITAX groups bill at a premium which generally finds its way down to salaries and bonus (or at least a little bit of it in the Big 4).
As for getting hired in the Big 4 with an LLM, you are at the right moment in time. I could give you a history lesson here, but I don't have the time. What I will say is the Big 4 is trying to "poach" the work tax lawyers do right now. They are blurring the lines between the legal and accounting professions.
READ THIS (and you are welcome)
LINK /
Specialize in international. Be sure to take a partnership, corporations, and estates and trusts course. I would assume those are part of the core courses though. Take as many tax research courses as you can. Tax research skills are what will eventually get you paid. Again, I would try and specialize in international and take as many international tax and structuring courses as you can.
FTR, I specialize in international and have been doing it for 7 years. Before that I was just core Fed tax groups in the Big 4 which is bread and butter, but nothing special. ITAX groups bill at a premium which generally finds its way down to salaries and bonus (or at least a little bit of it in the Big 4).
As for getting hired in the Big 4 with an LLM, you are at the right moment in time. I could give you a history lesson here, but I don't have the time. What I will say is the Big 4 is trying to "poach" the work tax lawyers do right now. They are blurring the lines between the legal and accounting professions.
READ THIS (and you are welcome)
LINK /
Posted on 7/22/15 at 2:26 pm to TheOcean
quote:
What kind of work do tax lawyers do within the big four? And did you enjoy your time at a big four firm?
Read the article linked. You got lucky and got the right person to respond to you in this thread.
I'll check back later, but have to get back to work now..
ETA: As for my time in the Big 4, parts are great, parts are terrible. Either way, it is where you should start and don't leave for at least 3 years, even if you hate it and get offers to leave.
This post was edited on 7/22/15 at 2:27 pm
Posted on 7/22/15 at 3:15 pm to Tiger n Miami AU83
quote:
In a tax law firm, CPAs are second class citizens for the most part.
Depends on the structure of the firm, from what I understand.
I know of a law firm who has a separate accounting firm. They'll refer their tax clients to the accounting firm for continuing service. They don't treat, nor pay, their CPAs as second class citizens.
Posted on 7/22/15 at 3:44 pm to southernelite
It's interesting. If it is a law and accounting firm that is intermingled or a CPA working for a law firm, the CPA is generally viewed as a bit below the attorneys. The billing rate of the attorney is almost always higher unless you are talking a junior associate vs a senior manager.
Also, it sounds like you are talking about a law firm that also has an accounting firm owned by the partners of the law firm. This is an interesting area but with a regulatory minefield that must be properly navigated. If you are just talking a law firm that refers work to an unrelated CPA firm, yeah that has been the way it always works and since both types are not under the same umbrella, there is no 1st or 2nd class.
Also, it sounds like you are talking about a law firm that also has an accounting firm owned by the partners of the law firm. This is an interesting area but with a regulatory minefield that must be properly navigated. If you are just talking a law firm that refers work to an unrelated CPA firm, yeah that has been the way it always works and since both types are not under the same umbrella, there is no 1st or 2nd class.
Posted on 7/22/15 at 3:47 pm to Tiger n Miami AU83
quote:
viewed as a bit below the attorneys
Posted on 7/22/15 at 5:10 pm to Tiger n Miami AU83
quote:
Specialize in international.
Already what I was shooting for. If I specialize in international, are there entry level jobs within the big 4 that are looking for international tax law attorneys?
Much appreciated with all the advice. Feel free to drop any other knowledge on me that you can think of
Posted on 7/22/15 at 5:22 pm to TheOcean
I'm sure there are. Every sizable Big 4 office I know of has an Itax group.
Where do you live or want to work?
Also, if you want to be assured of a Big 4 job, if you intern with them for a tax season and aren't lazy and incompetent you'll get a permanent offer.
Also, the Big 4 is on campus at every major university regularly. Find out when one will be there, put together your resume and go meet them. I had to go out to campus as a recruiter off and on when I was with them.
Where do you live or want to work?
Also, if you want to be assured of a Big 4 job, if you intern with them for a tax season and aren't lazy and incompetent you'll get a permanent offer.
Also, the Big 4 is on campus at every major university regularly. Find out when one will be there, put together your resume and go meet them. I had to go out to campus as a recruiter off and on when I was with them.
Posted on 7/22/15 at 5:38 pm to Tiger n Miami AU83
Come to think of it, I'm unsure of the LLM entry level route into the Big 4. I'm sure there is one, more on the consulting and structuring side though.
Compliance wise, it makes more sense to hire accountants, preferably with masters in tax, for most entry level positions which are almost always compliance. Your first year in the Big 4 your are kinda just a trained monkey punching shite into a computer, mindlessly half the time, for long hours.
Compliance wise, it makes more sense to hire accountants, preferably with masters in tax, for most entry level positions which are almost always compliance. Your first year in the Big 4 your are kinda just a trained monkey punching shite into a computer, mindlessly half the time, for long hours.
Posted on 7/23/15 at 7:44 am to TheOcean
You don't need to become a CPA or get an LLM to have a successful career in tax. A much better skill to have is the ability to analyze the economics of a transaction or proposed transaction. Your J.D. is enough to get started, and once you figure out exactly what area of tax interests you most you can decide how you want to specialize. You won't be making the big bucks until you have specialized skills anyway, and you will have to put in long hours doing some less than exciting work to obtain those skills. My advice would be to get started putting in those crappy hours getting paid rather than paying to add credentials that just delays earning the big bucks.
The advantage of working for a Big 4 accounting firm is diversity of clients. You can get exposure to more tax issues in a shorter period of time than at all but a few law firms. You will also get a crash course in tax compliance which is an essential skill for any tax professional. They are not one of the Big 4, but the biographies of the managing directors of Andersen Tax will give you an idea of the backgrounds of successful tax professionals who took the accounting firm career path. LINK
The advantage of working for a Big 4 accounting firm is diversity of clients. You can get exposure to more tax issues in a shorter period of time than at all but a few law firms. You will also get a crash course in tax compliance which is an essential skill for any tax professional. They are not one of the Big 4, but the biographies of the managing directors of Andersen Tax will give you an idea of the backgrounds of successful tax professionals who took the accounting firm career path. LINK
Posted on 7/23/15 at 10:59 am to Poodlebrain
You are right about not having to get the cpa or llm. An accounting degree and masters in tax can be enough.
However, you have to be better than your peers with those letters after their name if you have neither and it will close some doors.
However, you have to be better than your peers with those letters after their name if you have neither and it will close some doors.
Posted on 7/23/15 at 11:38 am to TheOcean
I'm a JD/LLM and I work in a large, regional firm. They like to ask me if I'm taking the CPA exam and I always tell them "eventually," but to do my work I really do not need it. I don't know that I will ever actually take it. Seems like a waste of time for me.
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