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Message
re: Statue of the original Fighting Tigers?
Posted on 11/30/11 at 10:26 am to Crbello4Hiceman
Posted on 11/30/11 at 10:26 am to Crbello4Hiceman
quote:
but the right can't do anything simply to honor the folks who established the school and kept it going during tough times.
Then why not honor Sherman?
It was Sherman who was the first superintendent. It was Sherman that kept the original seminary from being burned down when the Union occupied Alexandria. It was Sherman who donated the Pentagon Barracks to LSU. It was Sherman who donated the guns that fired on Fort Sumter. It was Sherman that warned Boyd not to support secession and the War...
No, becuase all those people on the "right" won't allow it - it's not PC. (How ironic that the right only complains about PC-ness when they disagree with it, but agree with PC-ness when it discourages ideas that they are against - or is it really just hypocrisy?)
Sherman was RIGHT and we owe him a debt of gratitude and should honor his legacy on campus.
...And while we're at it, honor the legacy of the Washington Artillery Tigers as the first Louisiana Tigers.
1
Posted on 11/30/11 at 10:38 am to WildTchoupitoulas
Where, oh where to begin, Wild Tchoupitoulas?
You are very nearly correct--however Louis Daguerre took his first photographs in Paris a year before the Washington Artillery was founded.
One of my favorite ways to engage people in the art of persuasion.
This is the only truthful part of your several posts.
And why, exactly, doesn't it matter what a group of citizens think? How, exactly, do you decide which group of citizens is thinking legitimately and which are not? Your dismissal of what some Louisiana citizens think is important is just as arrogant and high handed as those who would dismiss your opinions, is it not?
Based on Ole Miss's recent embrace of political correctness it would seem that your position would be better stated as "We do want to be Ole Miss."
And
Those "immigrant thugs" were a handful to say the least--but like all men before or since, were not without their admirable qualities. (Sort of like our own lovable football thugs!)
I think I can sum this up quickly:
Some folks want to ignore the history they find unpleasant. The fact remains that the L.S.U. Tigers are named for the Louisiana Tigers--and whether the term arose from the Washington Artillery, Wheat's Battalion, every Louisiana soldier in the Army of Norther Virginia, Chennault's Flying Tigers or the like--the namesakes are part of a real history.
Honor them with a statue. Or don't.
The truth cares not a damn for your silly-assed opinions.
quote:
There are no pictures of the original Washington Artillery because photography wasn't invented yet.
You are very nearly correct--however Louis Daguerre took his first photographs in Paris a year before the Washington Artillery was founded.
quote:
You people are total idiots.
One of my favorite ways to engage people in the art of persuasion.
quote:
Without getting into actual historical reasons for the Civil War, the PERCEPTION of the reasons for the War by families of most of the young men that play for the university is that the War was fought to protect an institution that enslaved their ancestors.
This is the only truthful part of your several posts.
quote:
It doesn't matter what you think because we don't expect you gto go out on the field and score touchdowns, it matters what the families of the young men that we are trying to recruit to play here think.
And why, exactly, doesn't it matter what a group of citizens think? How, exactly, do you decide which group of citizens is thinking legitimately and which are not? Your dismissal of what some Louisiana citizens think is important is just as arrogant and high handed as those who would dismiss your opinions, is it not?
quote:
We do NOT want to be Ole Miss.
Based on Ole Miss's recent embrace of political correctness it would seem that your position would be better stated as "We do want to be Ole Miss."
quote:
Besides, the Washington Artillery Tigers have a longer history in Louisiana and aren't as controversial as a bunch of immigrant thugs shanghaied into fighting Americans.
And
quote:
Isn't that the topic being discussed the first Tigers? Didn't the OP state: "How cool would it be to have a statue of the original battalion that the Tigers derived thier name from" ? Why don't you just quit showing off that you read Jones' Lee's Tigers, other people have read it too.
Those "immigrant thugs" were a handful to say the least--but like all men before or since, were not without their admirable qualities. (Sort of like our own lovable football thugs!)
I think I can sum this up quickly:
Some folks want to ignore the history they find unpleasant. The fact remains that the L.S.U. Tigers are named for the Louisiana Tigers--and whether the term arose from the Washington Artillery, Wheat's Battalion, every Louisiana soldier in the Army of Norther Virginia, Chennault's Flying Tigers or the like--the namesakes are part of a real history.
Honor them with a statue. Or don't.
The truth cares not a damn for your silly-assed opinions.
Posted on 11/30/11 at 10:43 am to Crbello4Hiceman
quote:
Just say this instead,"Sherman justified burning the south to the ground because he felt victory at all cost is justifiable. Oh- and he said war sucks so it is ok, he empathised with those he wiped out."
You obviously didn't read what I posted.
How did the citizens of Georgia feel about war when it was being fought in Virginia, Kentucky and Pennsylvania? How did they feel about it once it was on their doorstep?
But this idea that he burned the south to the ground is just old school propaganda. Sherman said this when he went into Georgia: "And let it be known that if a farmer wishes to burn his cotton, his house, his family, and himself, he may do so. But not his corn. We want that." The southerners were burning their own shite as well. Most of the devastation in Georgia was not caused by Union regulars, but more by Confederate deserters and freed slaves that were following Sherman and taking advantage of the chaos.
Every war we've fought with one hand tied behind our back has been less than successful. Only through total war can you discourage the enemy from taking to the hills in a guerilla campaign and continuing the fight.
quote:
A real winner with a life to live.
He didn't start the war, but he sure as hell didn't lose it, did he?
I'd say he was a winner, and I'm proud to say he's a part of LSU's legacy.
Why didn't Georgia surrender after Chattanooga fell?
Posted on 11/30/11 at 10:45 am to BabyTac
it would be cooler than the ugly arse shaq statue
Posted on 11/30/11 at 11:03 am to BabyTac
Yeah, let's get statues of a bunch of confederate soldiers to show off to our 90% black potential recruits.
Posted on 11/30/11 at 11:04 am to Tiger Lord
quote:
You are very nearly correct--however Louis Daguerre took his first photographs in Paris a year before the Washington Artillery was founded.
Not quite, according to their website:
The official date of organization for the Washington Artillery of New Orleans is September 7, 1838. This is only because that year is the earliest documented date associated with the unit that the United States War Department would concede when it accepted the Washington Artillery into the National Guard in 1909. But research now clearly proves that an organization of this name existed prior to 1838 (at least 1819)
...and was probably made up of militia veterans of the Battle of New Orleans who kept one of the guns and would get together every New Years, get drunk and fire it off.
quote:
One of my favorite ways to engage people in the art of persuasion.
As opposed to what I was responding to...?
"I hate hippies."
quote:
And why, exactly, doesn't it matter what a group of citizens think?
As I said, because those citizens, for the most part, aren't the ones that will be scoring touchdowns. If you want kids to come here to score touchdowns, you have to care about what they think.
But it does matter in the sense that the citizens think they want to win national championships in football at LSU, but the causes for the war don't matter when the championships they want are to be won with a majority of players whose ancestors were slaves. You want those kids playing for your school? Then put the Cival War behind you.
quote:
Your dismissal of what some Louisiana citizens think is important is just as arrogant and high handed as those who would dismiss your opinions, is it not?
No, because I want those kids to score touchdowns, and I don't want a bunch of racist rednecks to run them off with a bunch of Confederate adulation.
quote:
Based on Ole Miss's recent embrace of political correctness it would seem that your position would be better stated as "We do want to be Ole Miss."
You think they're being politically correct in Mississippi?
From their own website: During this time period, the university became known as "Ole Miss," a moniker used by slaves to describe the wife of the plantation owner.
But this actually doesn't have anything to do with politics, or the correctness thereof, it has to do with recruiting young men.
quote:
The truth cares not a damn for your silly-assed opinions
The Truth is a greased pig, and it's not my opinions I'm talking about here, IF YOU HAD READ MY POST you would notice that it's the perceptions of the families of the young men WE WANT TO BRING HERE that matter most in terms of GETTING THOSE YOUNG MEN TO PLAY HERE.
You don't care what those families think? Fine put up your statues to Forrest, Beauregard, Lee and Wheat. I happen to care what they think, and want to create an environment on campus where those young men will feel welcomed.
Why is that so hard to comprehend?
Posted on 11/30/11 at 11:07 am to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
Every war we've fought with one hand tied behind our back has been less than successful. Only through total war can you discourage the enemy from taking to the hills in a guerilla campaign and continuing the fight.
So if available, would you have advocated dropping a nuke on a people you are fighting to force to be a part of your country? According to the north's own logic, this wasn't a foreign country- the south was simply rebelling against their government.
Surely you can't justify totally destroying the people you want to force to be a part of your country in the name of victory, can you?
The attitude of total war is the reason that bitterness lingered for so long in the post-war times. On the one hand, you have the north saying we are all brothers and need to be united and on the other they are employing an any-means- necessary approach. Sherman saw fit to burn down towns, unless they were places he liked (LSU in our case). Not sure he is that honorable.
Posted on 11/30/11 at 11:15 am to Crbello4Hiceman
quote:
Surely you can't justify totally destroying the people you want to force to be a part of your country in the name of victory, can you?
we did it to the Germans and the Japanese....
Hell, even Dick Winters had silver looted from a hotel in Bertchesgarten....
Posted on 11/30/11 at 11:19 am to BordyLSU
quote:
vl100butch - What do you know about those 2 cannons outside the Military Science (ROTC) building. The plaque states that they were donated to the school by Sherman after the war and that they fired on Ft. Sumpter. Do you have any other info on them?
not much....i've seen pictures of them (in the Gumbo) on their original carriages back before the present campus was built....
there are those who say that one of the Boyd's actually bought them...
what has always intrigued me about them is they are bronze rifled cannon...rather unusual...and i'm drawing a total blank about when they were made (you can look at the muzzle and see the year)
Posted on 11/30/11 at 11:21 am to vl100butch
That's my point- the northern war machine was being hypocritical. This wasn't Germany or Japan. This was their own country (in their mind at least). How do they expect for their to be one united country when that is their war effort?
I guess on the bright side, if they had nukes and blew away the entire south, at least the descendants of those citizen-soldiers wouldn't have to be around to hear all the slandering of our anscestors.....
I guess on the bright side, if they had nukes and blew away the entire south, at least the descendants of those citizen-soldiers wouldn't have to be around to hear all the slandering of our anscestors.....
Posted on 11/30/11 at 11:25 am to WildTchoupitoulas
Asshat Iwas the first person to site a need for remembrance of Sherman, and am nowhere near the left and PCness is nothing but drivel byway of ignorance.
Posted on 11/30/11 at 11:36 am to Crbello4Hiceman
quote:
So if available, would you have advocated dropping a nuke on a people you are fighting to force to be a part of your country?
I would have sent a bunker-busting nuke right into Tora Bora before I sent one American soldier over to that god-forsaken place. Call me a PC liberal hippie all you want...
Are you saying we SHOULDN'T have dropped the bomb on Japan?
quote:
Surely you can't justify totally destroying the people you want to force to be a part of your country in the name of victory
False premise. No one is talking about totally destroying the actual PEOPLE, they're talking about totally destroying their desire and means to make war.
quote:
The attitude of total war is the reason that bitterness lingered for so long in the post-war times.
That's easy to say in hindsight, but if the South had propagated a guerrila war for years after, there would be resentment too.
quote:
On the one hand, you have the north saying we are all brothers and need to be united and on the other they are employing an any-means- necessary approach.
The South fired the first shots. Not to mention the one man who said we were brothers and need to stay united was murdered immediately after the war - by a Southerner. Those who took over in his place were more about punishing the South than rebuilding it.
quote:
Sherman saw fit to burn down towns, unless they were places he liked (LSU in our case). Not sure he is that honorable.
You should probably stop trying to figure out what Sherman wanted until you study up more on the man and his campaigns - especially Vicksburg, where hed fed thousands of civilians and confederate troops with food that had been hoarded by the wealthy of the city in hopes of gouging their own starving defenders and civillians.
Did Sherman burn Vicksburg to the ground? Chattanooga? Jackson?
It was actually Columbia, SC that really caught his rage, and that was because it was the capital of the state that started secession and the war.
He is as honorable as aany man charged with the mass killing of other men can be. And he was damn good at it.
"Confederate General Joseph E. Johnston upon hearing that Sherman's men were advancing on corduroy roads through the Salkehatchie swamps at a rate of a dozen miles per day, 'made up his mind that there had been no such army in existence since the days of Julius Caesar.'"
War is SUPPOSED to be absolutely horrible, that why it's supposed to be AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS. THAT is what Sherman was all about.
I can't emphasize this enough:
"I am sick and tired of war. Its glory is all moonshine.
It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard
the shrieks and groans of the wounded
who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation."
Posted on 11/30/11 at 11:38 am to CITWTT
quote:
Asshat Iwas the first person to site a need for remembrance of Sherman, and am nowhere near the left and PCness is nothing but drivel byway of ignorance.
Was I talking to you?
Sit down and shut up, you're crazy isn't needed here.
Posted on 11/30/11 at 11:42 am to WildTchoupitoulas
I'm going to make my last editorial comment and shut up for the day....(yeah, fat chance 
)
a properly done memorial on campus to the Louisiana Tigers.....ALL the Louisiana Tigers, not just the Civil War ones would be a positive....and NOT a statue....put it on the outside ring of war memorial at the flagpole on the parade grounds....
) a properly done memorial on campus to the Louisiana Tigers.....ALL the Louisiana Tigers, not just the Civil War ones would be a positive....and NOT a statue....put it on the outside ring of war memorial at the flagpole on the parade grounds....
Posted on 11/30/11 at 2:10 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
The Truth is a greased pig, and it's not my opinions I'm talking about here, IF YOU HAD READ MY POST you would notice that it's the perceptions of the families of the young men WE WANT TO BRING HERE that matter most in terms of GETTING THOSE YOUNG MEN TO PLAY HERE.
You don't care what those families think? Fine put up your statues to Forrest, Beauregard, Lee and Wheat. I happen to care what they think, and want to create an environment on campus where those young men will feel welcomed.
Why is that so hard to comprehend?
"It" is difficult to comprehend because we are talking past one another.
You have a starting premise which is, apparently, that the only thing that should matter to Louisiana State University and its partisans is attracting football talent--and that the only way to accomplish this is to ignore historic facts.
The rest of us are trying to figure out how to deal with historic truths in a way that honors all of Louisiana and her citizens, past, present and future.
You insist it cannot be done, and some of us disagree with you.
The South's historic impurities are woven alongside the South's virtues--virtues which were then and continue to be distinctive and attractive. Those virtues--loyalty to one's kith and kin, hospitality, the art of the hunt, of the table and of conversation, to name a few--are part and parcel of southern exceptionalism.
You refuse to believe that the virtues can be honored apart from the vices--but that's your problem.
I am also sensing that you think the young men we recruit are either too stupid or too apathetic to understand how one can honor a flawed past. And yet we do it every day with the deeply flawed figure of Martin Luther King, Jr.
It ain't that hard, really.
Why is that so hard to comprehend?
Posted on 11/30/11 at 2:16 pm to Tiger Vision
quote:
Yeah, let's get statues of a bunch of confederate soldiers to show off to our 90% black potential recruits.
I think a lot of our recruits are 100% black.
Posted on 11/30/11 at 2:18 pm to BabyTac
I doubt it would ever happen. Just ask the Ole Miss Bears how honoring history went for them.
Posted on 11/30/11 at 2:26 pm to BabyTac
The only statue I've ever wished we had is of Billy Cannon retuning the punt against Ole Miss. It's part of our stadiums history and should be strategically placed somewhere inside or outside the stadium. I would love if it could be near the tunnel where the players could touch it when they come on the field. The run is symbolic of never giving up. 
Posted on 11/30/11 at 2:35 pm to TenTex
quote:
near the tunnel where the players could touch it when they come on the field.
We already have the Win bar.
Posted on 11/30/11 at 3:10 pm to Tiger Lord
quote:
You have a starting premise which is, apparently, that the only thing that should matter to Louisiana State University and its partisans is attracting football talent--and that the only way to accomplish this is to ignore historic facts.
First of all,you're posting this on a FOOTBALL MESSAGE BOARD. I'm just trying to stay on message. Secondly, if you ask most LSU fans what is more important to them, the causes of the Civil War or winning football championships, most would say winning football championships.
quote:
The rest of us are trying to figure out how to deal with historic truths in a way that honors all of Louisiana and her citizens, past, present and future.
That's fine, but neither Wheat nor his Tiger Rifles ever had anything to do with LSU, so we don't need to honor them on campus.
Sherman, on the other hand, was integral to the formation of LSU, and victory for the Union so why don't you attack those that disparage him? I notice you're giving me a lot of flak, but ignoring those who don't care to honor him. Why aren't you clamouring for a statue to Billy Sherman?
No, you're focusing all of your efforts on me. And here I am just wanting football championships - and a statue of Sherman.
quote:
You insist it cannot be done, and some of us disagree with you
No, I'm just insisting that we keep the more controversial ones off of campus.
Your argument, while eloquent is specious. You cannot honestly argue for a Civial War memorial with Confederate soldiers on campus without raising eyebrows. Are you that naive?
quote:
The South's historic impurities are woven alongside the South's virtues--virtues which were then and continue to be distinctive and attractive. Those virtues--loyalty to one's kith and kin, hospitality, the art of the hunt, of the table and of conversation, to name a few--are part and parcel of southern exceptionalism.
Oh my god, who switched over to LPB? Get over yourself.
quote:
You refuse to believe that the virtues can be honored apart from the vices--but that's your problem.
I never said anywhere that the virtues you listed could not be honored, now you're just making shite up to suit some pre-conceived notion you have of me.
I'm an 8th generation Louisianian with a great-great-grandfather that joined the 7th Louisiana Volunteer Cavalry Regiment and fought at Franklin, La. I'm a 3rd generation LSU man. I'm sorry that my state left the Union - I happen to love my country - I'm also sorry that so many in my state can't seem to get past this ridiculous subject.
quote:
I am also sensing that you think the young men we recruit are either too stupid or too apathetic to understand how one can honor a flawed past. And yet we do it every day with the deeply flawed figure of Martin Luther King, Jr.
MLK wasn't exactly Malcom X - which every white person in the South should be thankful for.
And let's be honest here, the educational system in Louisiana is bumping arse with Mississippi at the bottom. We're not exactly known for educating our youth.
But yeah, that's a great idea, let's put a great big statue in front of Tiger Stadium with a bunch of confederate soldiers waving the battle flag - and YOU can stand there all day and explain to recruits the nuances of States Rights vis-a-vis the statements of secession from each of the southern states, such as Mississippi's opening line: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."
It's just a DUMB idea to honor Civil War soldiers on LSU's campus.
However, honoring the Washington Artillery would be relevent, and not as controversial as Sherman or the confederate soldiers.
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