re: How good would JJ and JL be if Jimbo was still here?

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Start him against UNC and LSU gets a WIN.

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You don't know that. You don't know how our defense will be. Or our running game.

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Start him against UNC and LSU gets a WIN.

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And if he plays like he did vs la tech?

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You all are missing one of the variable's in this equasion......

You can not compare playing in the ACC to playing in the SEC...

Sorry if you disagree....

It would be hard to argue that the best DB's in the ACC, would likely not start at the top six schools in the SEC.....

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Valid point. not disagreeing. I'm not a crowton or jimbo basher. I'm just pointing out, as titled in this thread, jimbo wouldn't have made j.j. or j.l. much different than crowton has. they are not christian ponder, matt flynn, davey or jamarcus. just like rick clausen, randal, lee, weatherford, and manuel aren't.

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Valid point. not disagreeing. I'm not a crowton or jimbo basher. I'm just pointing out, as titled in this thread, jimbo wouldn't have made j.j. or j.l. much different than crowton has. they are not christian ponder, matt flynn, davey or jamarcus. just like rick clausen, randal, lee, weatherford, and manuel aren't.

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So your opinion is that coaching makes no difference?

Well then why the frick are paying Crowton $400,000 if coaching doesn't make a difference? Should we just get a bum off the street and pay him minimum wage and save some money?

Let's compare:

QBs that started at least one game under Jimbo:

Booty (pretty much developed by the time Jimbo got here): All-SEC

Davey: (Jr and Sr years): All-SEC, NFL

Mauck: NC, NFL

Randall: Nothing

Russell: All-SEC, Manning Award Winner, #1 overall pick, NFL

Flynn (four years of development under Jimbo): NC, NFL

Weatherford (1 season under Jimbo): Nothing

Ponder: Heisman watch list

Manuel: Jury still out, started four games. Played pretty well other than the Maryland game. Gaterbowl MVP.

So Jimbo put 4 of his 7 eligible QBs in the NFL, had the best QB in the country in 2006, three All-SEC performers, and now has a heisman watch candidate.

Crowton:

LSU

(2008) Hatch: Nothing

(2008/2009)Lee: Set a NCAA record for interceptions returned for touchdowns

(2009) Jefferson: Head the 109th ranked offense in college football.

Oregon

(2005) Kellen Clemons: Crowton's first year was Kellen's Senior year. Clemons was an above-average QB and was drafted into the NFL

(2006) Dennis Dixon/Brady Leaf: Crowton's second year at Oregon. Both had low efficiency ratings. Both has less than a 1:1 TD:Int ration.

BYU

(2001) Doman (one year under Crowton, his senior year): Good college QB, journeyman QB in the NFL.

(2002) Engemann/Berry (Year Two of Crowton at BYU): both mediocre QBs, both had a 1:1 TD to Int ration, both had very low efficency ratings

(2003) Berry/Beck (Year Three of Crowton at BYU): both mediocre, both had more Ints than TDs

(2004) John Beck (Last year of Crowton at BYU): minimal improvement, low efficiency rating, 1.5:1 Td:Int ratio.

Note: In 2005 and 2006, the two seasons immediately following the Crowton era, John Beck's efficiency rating jumped nearly 50 points and his TD:Int when from 1:1 and 1.5:1 to 2:1 and 8:1 respectfully. Beck was drafted in 2007 NFL Draft.



But, you're right. Coaching makes no difference.

you may want to add xavier lee and rick clausen to your list.

davey performed pretty well against arkansas prior jimbo. who gets the credit? if jimbo gets it for flynn how does he get it for davey too? same situation.

i've already validated my point. (see page 4)

"My point is, it's talent that trumps coaching. you either have a good qb or you don't. it's unfortunate r.p. got kicked off. he appeared to be "developing" under crowton. However, i would say it is because the kid was a good qb to begin with. you either have it or you don't.

case in point, if it's the coaches who make the player vs the player that makes the coach, then your saying b. favre, k warner, big ben, tony romo, flaco ect got better qb development than matt mauk, davey, matt leinart, chris leak, chad henning. ect.

i really don't think if tim tebow, drew breese, peyton manning, ect played under crowton it would have prevented them from being stars. period.

What jimbo is excellent at, is recruiting qbs. recognizing their talent. it's why i said, to the people who wanted him gone, we would miss him.

you show me a great coach, i show you a guy who gets or has great players. I love how these n.f.l. coaches are great for a three year period, only to lose their great players to free agency, getting old ect., then all of sudden they are fired because they aren't great coaches anymore.

sean payton is the hot coach, now. let him lose d.b. and see how great he is."

crowton has coached 7 qb's that have played or playing at the n.f.l. level. this is a fact.

lastly, coaching has a part. a pretty big part. It's up to the coach to recruit and recognize the talent. this is why you pay them the big money. to bring that talent to your team. Then they have to inspire them and get them to trust/believe in what they want to do.

All the great ones get the best talent. you put saban at vandy, see if he wins a n.c.. put carol, brown, stoops, tressel, ect. at vandy and see how good they are. talent trumps coaching.

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you may want to add xavier lee and rick clausen to your list.

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Lee played one year for Jimbo and started one game for Jimbo when Weatherford went down.

Clausen never started a game.

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davey performed pretty well against arkansas prior jimbo. who gets the credit? if jimbo gets it for flynn how does he get it for davey too? same situation.

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Most of Davey's credit should go to Jimbo because Jimbo coached him his last two years, BUT I will agree that some his development occurred before Jimbo.

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i've already validated my point. (see page 4)

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No you haven't. You keep making shite up and saying that its all players and no coaches, when every objective fact shows Crowton's inability to develop QBs in general, and especially when compared to Fisher.

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"My point is, it's talent that trumps coaching. you either have a good qb or you don't. it's unfortunate r.p. got kicked off. he appeared to be "developing" under crowton. However, i would say it is because the kid was a good qb to begin with. you either have it or you don't.

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Well, the history of football disagrees with you. Obviously talent is important, but kids like Peyton Manning and Drew Brees don't just grab a football at age 6 and possess the ability to play QB on an elite level. To make this argument makes you seem quasi-retarded.

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case in point, if it's the coaches who make the player vs the player that makes the coach, then your saying b. favre, k warner, big ben, tony romo, flaco ect got better qb development than matt mauk, davey, matt leinart, chris leak, chad henning. ect.

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So are so lost in the topic, you don't know where to go. Obviously, the more talented QBs will rise to the very elite ranks, while less talented ones will have less success on a professional level, but that doesn't come near what we're discussing. All of the people you listed had a good fundamental base, something to build on in order to let their talent excel, and that's where coaching comes in. QBs under Crowton struggle, as they have his entire career, because he is incapable of providing this fundamental base. Its the reason why he excels at schools in his first year with an already developed QB, and then the production immediately falls off when they leave. Just look through his coaching history. It's the same thing over and over and over again.

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i really don't think if tim tebow, drew breese, peyton manning, ect played under crowton it would have prevented them from being stars. period.

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I disagree and I have proof. You don't and that's the difference. Do you not think that someone had to teach Manning, Brees, and Tebow mechanics, pocket awareness, etc.? Do you think they came out the womb knowing how to read a nickel package, cover 2 with the mike slanting to the weak side?

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What jimbo is excellent at, is recruiting qbs. recognizing their talent.

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You think Matt Flynn and Matt Mauck are overly talented QBs? I think I may have recognized the problem here; you're delusional.

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crowton has coached 7 qb's that have played or playing at the n.f.l. level. this is a fact.

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I can think of five and here is the best part of that fact. Three of them were seniors in Crowton's first year, one was a JUCO transfer, and one was awful until Crowton left.

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lastly, coaching has a part. a pretty big part. It's up to the coach to recruit and recognize the talent. this is why you pay them the big money. to bring that talent to your team. Then they have to inspire them and get them to trust/believe in what they want to do.

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See, you just keep proving that not only do you not know shite about football, you don't shite about sports in general.

All the great ones get the best talent. you put saban at vandy, see if he wins a n.c.. put carol, brown, stoops, tressel, ect. at vandy and see how good they are. talent trumps coaching.

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He's not here so it doesn't fricking matter

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This site would be pretty empty if we only discussed things that mattered.

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There are way WAY too many people on this board who convince themselves that coaching has little effect on players. They think Brees and Manning burst out of the womb rocketing frozen ropes to Jerry Rice and Randy Moss who leaped out of their cribs and snatched them with one hand.

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i guess you can teach that 4.3 speed with a 6 ft 4" frame right? you mean to tell me jerry and randy got that great coaching development at mississippi valley and marshall? how many other great wr's came out of there? thank you for validating the point!

manning 6 ft 4 inches and a strong arm. david cutcliff taught that, huh?

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You left off Flynn, Perrilloux and Tim Rattay from Crowton's list.

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We've beat Flynn to death. He was a Fifth-year senior when Crowton got here (like three of the other QBs Crowton "put in the NFL.") If you want to make an argument that Flynn made strides in progression under Crowton, then be my guest, but most people are going to laugh you out the room. Flynn, like Clemens and Doman, had all developed under a different QB coaches for four years before Crowton stepped in and took the reigns.

This is the reason for the cyclical pattern under Crowton. Ask BYU or Oregon fans (or LSU fans who have the ability to see what's happening.) Crowton lights it up in his first year because most of the starters have learned the technique and fundamentals under other coaches. Once these guys start moving out of the program, Crowton's results landslide because of his inability to develop talent, especially at the QB position.

Rattay was a JUCO transfer. In his first season with La Tech, he was the best QB in the WAC and near the top of efficiency rankings in the NCAA. He stayed that way his entire career at La Tech. You could argue that he didn't regress under Crowton, but that's about it.

Again, you can't point to one single QB that has ever played under Crowton that went from a young, raw product as a freshman to a servicable QB by the end of his college career. You can name 6 or 7 under Fisher.

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I also like how Beck showed "minimal improvement" from his FR to SO year even though his completion %, ypa, td-int ratio all improved by good margins.

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Look at the jump after Crowton left. It's a ridiculous jump.

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Essentially, Jimbo has been the coach when 4 QBs had good years. (Davey, Mauck, Russell, Ponder). Crowton has been the coach when 4 QBs had good years. (Rattay, Doman, Clemens, Flynn). The facts are that both don't do well with FR and SO qbs. Jimbo is a bit more reliable, mostly because he is a safer play caller, but he is still far from great and is capable of having bad offenses (86th in 2002, 80th in 2008 and 60th in 2005 with a loaded team).

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Except Jimbo actually coached those four when they were younger and improved their ability to play the position. Crowton stepped in three of these quarterback's fifth year in the system. The other, Rattay, was one the best QBs in the country from the second he stepped foot on La Tech's campus.

The argument is development, not who happened to be calling the plays when these guys had good years. Again, you can't point to one QB who consistently progressed under Crowton. And this isn't just my opinion, this has been the knock on Crowton for some time.

I don't disagree about playcalling. If he has developed talent, and if he has players to fit his scheme, Crowton is undoubtedly a better play caller than Fisher. But those are two really big "ifs." Crowton doesn't develop his young talent and refuses to morph his offense to fit his players, so he hardly gets to the point were he's simply orchestrating an offense.

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has it ever occured that maybe both men have continued to switch jobs before many of the qb's they have coached has completed their 4 or 5 year career? therefore, it's impossible to give credit to one guy for a players progress. i know this defeats your point but it's a logical conclusion.

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Not really.

Jimbo was here for seven seasons. Four QBs spent at least four years in his program (Mauck, Randall, Russell, Flynn). Three made it to the NFL, two won National Championships.

Under Crowton's list of QBs, only two were under his tutelage for more than two seasons - Rattay and Jarrett Lee.