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Started By
Message
re: Crowton with a real QB
Posted on 12/21/10 at 1:07 pm to therocketscientist
Posted on 12/21/10 at 1:07 pm to therocketscientist
quote:
Dude, if you have a poor QB, you do NOT have the pieces.
Unfortunately, Crowton has had poor QBs his entire career. Guys like Dennis Dixon and John Beck were simply awful QBs. If only he could have gotten some legit NFL prospects, then maybe his magnificent offense could have worked.
And, on top of that, the poor QB play directly results in Crowton never designing routes that allow our WRs to be open. It also causes him to frantically change substitution packages like a ADHD eight year old having a seizure.
quote:
NO WAY can you say that. LSU had one, and only one, weakness in our entire team, and that was the QB. Period.
Or could our weakness have been a piss poor Offensive Coordinator who has a history of destroying offenses and regressing QB talent?
quote:
Problem is, without a good QB, you are not going to contend for a championship, and you are going to have a lot of 3-and-outs. Which is exactly what we got in 2009 and 2010.
Maybe if we switch back to our prostyle offense from 2006 and 2007, call plays from that playbook, and get a 5th year senior transfer at QB, then maybe Crowton can be good.
0
Posted on 12/21/10 at 1:08 pm to MandevilleLSUTiger
quote:
It had nothing to do with someone not maximizing their potential.
It's not just that. Crowton's offense is simply fricking terrible. It's erratic and consistently tries to force plays that don't work while wholly ignoring things that do.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 1:19 pm to MandevilleLSUTiger
quote:
So it was just concidence that our two fairly highly recruited QBs both ended up being busts I guess. It had nothing to do with someone not maximizing their potential. I guess you can believe that if you would like.
I believe the following regarding the two QB's
Lee: He was thrown to the wolfs and then to the bench. He was a head case. Miles lost confidence in him, furthering Lee's confidence reduction in himself. Miles never re-gained confidence in Lee, so Lee never had a valid opportunity to progress. Second team reps in practice. Poor timing and herky-jerky playing opporunity in games.
BLAME CASTING: 70% Miles, 30% Other/Lee/Crowton.
JJ: Classic South Louisiana QB who got his brain wired wrong in HS in what i call "anti-SEC style offense". He saw what happened to Lee, and became gun shy to make a mistake, so became very fragile and tentative. Perhaps Miles and Crowton are partly responsible for over-compesating by preaching "avoid turnovers". He was given every chance way beyond fairness to progress, and other than some rare exceptions, he stalled and arguably regressed (overall). The offense was tailored to him. He became ultra limited and these tailoring measures prevented him from progressing further, resigning him to a very small number of play options. He never did 1) learn to see the field with composure, so he stared down his primary receiver 90+% of the time, 2) made minimal pocket presence improvement, 3) was a very slow decision maker, as he watched him primary receiver, and if he was covered, stood there frozen to see if he would break free or if he should tuck and run, 4) had a very, very slow release.
BLAME: Natural QB issue(s) 80%, 20% Other/Crowton.
Meanwhile, I am asking folks who expected Crowton to develop him to provide me with their plan for changing this behavior. Or, argue with these observations at least with some facts. No one had come up with anything but assertions and claims, and pointing in different directions. Nothing. Notta has been provided in this thread of any substance or worth to back up this assertion.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 1:25 pm to therocketscientist
You do realize that Lee has the same problem as Jefferson regarding locking on the first read, but it's much, much worse?
There is so much that you just don't get.
You fault coaching for Lee's shortcomings, yet argue that Jefferson's eerily similar shortcomings are a product of "natural QB issues."
The problem with the pro-Lee crowd (and for the record I consider Lee to be in the same boat as Jefferson - neither have ever been consistently put in a position to succeed due to Crowton) is that you decided your conclusion long before your evaluation and you simply pick and choose details to fit your already established conclusion.
There is so much that you just don't get.
You fault coaching for Lee's shortcomings, yet argue that Jefferson's eerily similar shortcomings are a product of "natural QB issues."
The problem with the pro-Lee crowd (and for the record I consider Lee to be in the same boat as Jefferson - neither have ever been consistently put in a position to succeed due to Crowton) is that you decided your conclusion long before your evaluation and you simply pick and choose details to fit your already established conclusion.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 1:25 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
It's not just that. Crowton's offense is simply fricking terrible. It's erratic and consistently tries to force plays that don't work while wholly ignoring things that do.
Yep. Crowton has the rare ability to design an offense exactly the opposite of how it should be run considering the team's strengths and weaknesses.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 1:29 pm to therocketscientist
quote:
Meanwhile, I am asking folks who expected Crowton to develop him to provide me with their plan for changing this behavior. Or, argue with these observations at least with some facts. No one had come up with anything but assertions and claims, and pointing in different directions. Nothing. Notta has been provided in this thread of any substance or worth to back up this assertion.
What do you want - someone to come up with a 12 step program to make JJ/JL an All SEC QB? What I think you should be looking for is what was already discussed - how a good OC can get more out of what he has/design the offense towards your strengths and away from your weaknesses.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 1:31 pm to therocketscientist
quote:
Miles never re-gained confidence in Lee
So miles gets 70 % blame for this ?
Posted on 12/21/10 at 1:36 pm to etm512
quote:
What do you want - someone to come up with a 12 step program to make JJ/JL an All SEC QB?
1) Implement mismatches in the secondary/LB corp of the defense. Instead of consistently forcing routes to the sidelines allowing the defense to minimize our passing lanes, design routes that require LBs and Safeties to cover our receivers in space.
2) Implement drop down routes, especially in the no huddle offense. Stop calling three and four routes that all run 20+ yards down the field. Instead, design routes with deep, middle, and short reads. And, use your RB and TE as safety valves on covered routes.
3) Use playaction to hurt a defense that plays close to the line. Instead of always calling plays from the shotgun, punish a defense with playaction. And for the love of god, when it works (like it has in the past) don't go away from it for two straight games.
4) Use screen passes to deep an aggressive pass rush honest.
5) Stop destroying offensive rhythm by constantly using erratic substitution packages. You may think you are confusing a defense, but all you are actually doing is allowing them to set a defense. You don't have to sub personnel after every play.
These five things may not make Lee or Jefferson an all-SEC QB, but it will improve this offense tremendously. Right now, we either never or sparingly do any of these.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 1:42 pm to Antonio Moss
Nice quote:
2) Implement drop down routes, especially in the no huddle offense. Stop calling three and four routes that all run 20+ yards down the field. Instead, design routes with deep, middle, and short reads. And, use your RB and TE as safety valves on covered routes.
This is the one that drives me insane. Especially when you have a QB that is prone to taking sacks, you run nothing but long developing pass routes on certain plays with no safety valve
Posted on 12/21/10 at 1:43 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
1) Implement mismatches in the secondary/LB corp of the defense. Instead of consistently forcing routes to the sidelines allowing the defense to minimize our passing lanes, design routes that require LBs and Safeties to cover our receivers in space.
2) Implement drop down routes, especially in the no huddle offense. Stop calling three and four routes that all run 20+ yards down the field. Instead, design routes with deep, middle, and short reads. And, use your RB and TE as safety valves on covered routes.
3) Use playaction to hurt a defense that plays close to the line. Instead of always calling plays from the shotgun, punish a defense with playaction. And for the love of god, when it works (like it has in the past) don't go away from it for two straight games.
4) Use screen passes to deep an aggressive pass rush honest.
5) Stop destroying offensive rhythm by constantly using erratic substitution packages. You may think you are confusing a defense, but all you are actually doing is allowing them to set a defense. You don't have to sub personnel after every play.
6) If QB play is not your best friend, utilize a running game that is more creative than dives, options, and the occasional jet sweep to shepard that never had a fake/pass/reverse variation.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 1:46 pm to etm512
quote:
Especially when you have a QB that is prone to taking sacks, you run nothing but long developing pass routes on certain plays with no safety valve
Last play against Arkansas.
The defensive line has been in the backfield all day and Mr. Wizard calls a four wide package with every route running 20 yards down the field. Three seconds later - sack and fumble.
The WRs weren't even in their breaks before the fumble.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 1:57 pm to Antonio Moss
All I know is this: the first step into making Lee an All-SEC caliber QB should be:
1. Continue to run the read option with Lee at QB. This will completely keep the defense off balance due to Lee's superb running ability.
1. Continue to run the read option with Lee at QB. This will completely keep the defense off balance due to Lee's superb running ability.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 2:00 pm to Antonio Moss
1) Implement mismatches in the secondary/LB corp of the defense. Instead of consistently forcing routes to the sidelines allowing the defense to minimize our passing lanes, design routes that require LBs and Safeties to cover our receivers in space.
2) Implement drop down routes, especially in the no huddle offense. Stop calling three and four routes that all run 20+ yards down the field. Instead, design routes with deep, middle, and short reads. And, use your RB and TE as safety valves on covered routes.
3) Use playaction to hurt a defense that plays close to the line. Instead of always calling plays from the shotgun, punish a defense with playaction. And for the love of god, when it works (like it has in the past) don't go away from it for two straight games.
4) Use screen passes to deep an aggressive pass rush honest.
5) Stop destroying offensive rhythm by constantly using erratic substitution packages. You may think you are confusing a defense, but all you are actually doing is allowing them to set a defense. You don't have to sub personnel after every play.
This is not development, this is playcalling. I suppose you are inferring these lessen his latent issues?
1)He can't see the middle of the field. He gets confused or impatient.
2)Only works if the defense does not cover his primary receiver.
3)Ok, i agree with this play calling.
4) He is the worse screen pass QB i have ever seen. can't consistently throw an accuate/timely screen or bubble screen pass to save himself. Or rarely. I would agree to this for sure if he could.
5) Sounds good also, but this is not development, this is play calling.
2) Implement drop down routes, especially in the no huddle offense. Stop calling three and four routes that all run 20+ yards down the field. Instead, design routes with deep, middle, and short reads. And, use your RB and TE as safety valves on covered routes.
3) Use playaction to hurt a defense that plays close to the line. Instead of always calling plays from the shotgun, punish a defense with playaction. And for the love of god, when it works (like it has in the past) don't go away from it for two straight games.
4) Use screen passes to deep an aggressive pass rush honest.
5) Stop destroying offensive rhythm by constantly using erratic substitution packages. You may think you are confusing a defense, but all you are actually doing is allowing them to set a defense. You don't have to sub personnel after every play.
This is not development, this is playcalling. I suppose you are inferring these lessen his latent issues?
1)He can't see the middle of the field. He gets confused or impatient.
2)Only works if the defense does not cover his primary receiver.
3)Ok, i agree with this play calling.
4) He is the worse screen pass QB i have ever seen. can't consistently throw an accuate/timely screen or bubble screen pass to save himself. Or rarely. I would agree to this for sure if he could.
5) Sounds good also, but this is not development, this is play calling.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 2:00 pm to MandevilleLSUTiger
quote:
1. Continue to run the read option with Lee at QB. This will completely keep the defense off balance due to Lee's superb running ability.
This has me convinced that GC uses the "Ask Corso" feature from the old NCAA games to call plays.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 2:02 pm to therocketscientist
quote:
This is not development, this is playcalling
What if the playcalling is a hinderance on a QB's development?
And Moss isn't focusing on GC's lack of ability to develop alone, he is focusing on GC's overall poor performance as a coordinator, which includes playcalling.
This post was edited on 12/21/10 at 2:04 pm
Posted on 12/21/10 at 2:07 pm to therocketscientist
quote:
one, and only one, weakness in our entire team, and that was the QB. Period.
Your hate for JJ causes you tunnel vision. The dude threw for 62% last year and not great, but workable 57% in '10. The offense was predicatble, recievers often didn't get separation and dropped passes, the OL was servicable but not overwhelming and didn't hold up so well in 2 losses. JJ ain't Mallet, but to say a new QB will miraculously deliver us a top 20 offense is pipe dreaming. The O plilosophy needs to be stripped and rebuilt around Pro Set/ Spread.
We just don't have Spread Option personnel or coaching (Crowton), and valuable practice time is wasted on it instead of improving what we're best suited for.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 2:11 pm to MandevilleLSUTiger
quote:
He has the pieces, he just hasn't developed them. Which was the entire debate in this thread.
he has an average to below average qb, no full back, we started a 260 lb center in 09 (his first year playing) we started a 280lb lft guard in 09 (his first year playing) and two converted defensive tackle on the right side.
i don't think we had all the peaces in 09. 10, the o-line improved, which i expect it to improve more in 11. we didn't have a fb in 10 again. we should in 11.
the above is factual information that he did NOT have all the peaces. and, i've explained, these qb's had to play way before they were ready due to r.p. being kicked off. there has been and is more than one thing wrong with the offense other than g.c.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 2:15 pm to therocketscientist
quote:
This is not development, this is playcalling. I suppose you are inferring these lessen his latent issues?
I'm showing how Gary Crowton's offense makes anyone look like garbage at the QB position.
People will say Jefferson can't read this or Lee does that . . . my point is no one can spot the open receiver when no receiver is open.
95% of all QBs are going to struggle throwing through passing lanes that are the size of the eye of a needle.
quote:
1)He can't see the middle of the field. He gets confused or impatient.
Why would he even look to the middle of the field? We don't run routes there.
quote:
2)Only works if the defense does not cover his primary receiver.
I think you mean "covers his primary receiver" and, yes, defense do try and cover outside receivers which sometimes means that the primary receiver will be covered and a drop down route may actually have to be used.
3)Ok, i agree with this play calling.
quote:
4) He is the worse screen pass QB i have ever seen. can't consistently throw an accuate/timely screen or bubble screen pass to save himself. Or rarely. I would agree to this for sure if he could.
I can almost guarantee that we ran less than five RB screens all year. I'm not talking about bubble screens; I'm talking about actual RB screens where the line releases and creates a wall in front. Jefferson is perfect for this because he's 6'5'' and can get the ball over the pursuing D-line.
quote:
This is not development, this is playcalling.
While Crowton blows at developing talent, these things will increase productivity which is the ultimate goal. We don't have undevelopable talent, we have an offense that is not conducive to success.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 2:26 pm to dos crystal
quote:
he has an average to below average qb, no full back, we started a 260 lb center in 09 (his first year playing) we started a 280lb lft guard in 09 (his first year playing) and two converted defensive tackle on the right side.
i don't think we had all the peaces in 09. 10, the o-line improved, which i expect it to improve more in 11. we didn't have a fb in 10 again. we should in 11.
the above is factual information that he did NOT have all the peaces. and, i've explained, these qb's had to play way before they were ready due to r.p. being kicked off. there has been and is more than one thing wrong with the offense other than g.c.
The below is factual information that other coordinators with the same or fewer pieces have more success than GC.
For example, Tennessee. Started 2 freshman, 1 sophomore, 1 junior and 1 senior on O-line. Started a freshman QB for half a season.
UT's offense accounted for 4,390 total yards, 2,997 were passing. LSU's offense accounted for 3,991, 1,865 were passing. UT's offense was ranked 74th in total offense. LSU was ranked 92nd in total offense. LSU did outscore UT 345 to 324.
That program has been in turmoil, and doesn't have near the talent on offense LSU has right now. And yet, based on the total offense rankings, UT was more productive.
I'm sure you will reply with something like "Well if GC had Tyler Bray...", but come on man.
Posted on 12/21/10 at 2:28 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
You do realize that Lee has the same problem as Jefferson regarding locking on the first read, but it's much, much worse?
they both have DIFFERENT issues. jefferson's isn't that he lock's on to the first wr. it's that he is SCARED to make the wrong decision. therefore, he doesn't make one unless it's obvious. this causes him to hold on to the ball. he also has an accuracy problem
lee makes a quick decisision w/o looking off or for another wr. he doesn't really see the entire defense. he doesn't have an accuracy problem but get's nervous with a rush.
they both focus on the rush rather than keep their eye's down field. this is what they have in common.
you honestly think g.c. has not told jefferson or lee what coverage to read, where to go with the ball, who's usually open with a certain defense. either they can compute it or they can't.
ronald curry, rober marve, e.j. manuel, xavier lee, drew weatherford, gilbert at texas, john brantley, all were top shelf qb's out of high school. they all received bad coaching? meanwhile, drew breese, matt ryan, alex smith, colt mccoy, sam bradford were not top shelf qb's coming out of high school. they received better coaching? p.s. mcoy, smith, gilbert, brantley were taught by the same guys.
come on people, use your brains.
yes it's coincidence that lee and jefferson didn't turn out to be great qbs.
jefferson wasn't concidered a good qb until late in his sr year. bad evaluation. he was on a great team with great players and excelled. lee, he just happened to fall in the category as curry, gilbert, brantely et al.
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