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Message
re: Charlie Mac and Les Miles
Posted on 12/9/09 at 11:47 am to FTL Tiger
Posted on 12/9/09 at 11:47 am to FTL Tiger
The comparison is valid, especially since Cholly Mac followed in the heels of Dietzel the same way Miles followed in Saban's heels.
But here's the difference. Miles won a national title on his own (albeit with a lot of luck and Saban's recruits) and Miles will likely take the Michigan job as soon as RichRod gets fired, which is likely next year. Just listening to all the LSU homers who berate Miles constantly tells me he's as good as gone when RichRod gets fired. You can take that to the bank.
Whereas, Cholly Mac bled purple and gold until the day he died. They would have had to go Bowden on him at some point to get him to retire or he would have died on the sideline. But then, as now, LSU had a serious case of Bama penis envy so they ran off Cholly Mac. Just imagine if Dietzel had coached at Bama.
So don't worry, we won't have to live with Miles much longer. The only problem is, there's no guarantee LSU will hire a better or at least equal coach to Miles, so our Bama penis envy may only get worse, not better. Unless we get those Livingston Parish boys to stop shooting TVs and set their sights on Saban. Disclaimer -- that's a joke... I would never condone such an act of senseless violence. Stick to TVs please!
But here's the difference. Miles won a national title on his own (albeit with a lot of luck and Saban's recruits) and Miles will likely take the Michigan job as soon as RichRod gets fired, which is likely next year. Just listening to all the LSU homers who berate Miles constantly tells me he's as good as gone when RichRod gets fired. You can take that to the bank.
Whereas, Cholly Mac bled purple and gold until the day he died. They would have had to go Bowden on him at some point to get him to retire or he would have died on the sideline. But then, as now, LSU had a serious case of Bama penis envy so they ran off Cholly Mac. Just imagine if Dietzel had coached at Bama.
So don't worry, we won't have to live with Miles much longer. The only problem is, there's no guarantee LSU will hire a better or at least equal coach to Miles, so our Bama penis envy may only get worse, not better. Unless we get those Livingston Parish boys to stop shooting TVs and set their sights on Saban. Disclaimer -- that's a joke... I would never condone such an act of senseless violence. Stick to TVs please!
2
Posted on 12/9/09 at 11:47 am to Y.A. Tittle
Can't disagree with that Y.A. But I think Mac would have sustained success longer than Vince.
What's Ol' Buckskin Bill up to or has he passed on to that Happy Hunting Ground? You do know he absolutely HATED being called that outside of his tv show? He also had the longest running kids tv show in history, longer even than Captain Kangaroo, which I hated.
What's Ol' Buckskin Bill up to or has he passed on to that Happy Hunting Ground? You do know he absolutely HATED being called that outside of his tv show? He also had the longest running kids tv show in history, longer even than Captain Kangaroo, which I hated.
This post was edited on 12/9/09 at 11:49 am
Posted on 12/9/09 at 11:50 am to MiketheTiger69
Herschel never even had to play LSU. Dooley wins the '80 NC regardless of who's coaching the Tigers.
Most of your other points were valid.
Bill Black is still alive (and kicking, as far as I know).
Most of your other points were valid.
Bill Black is still alive (and kicking, as far as I know).
Posted on 12/9/09 at 11:53 am to Rouge
quote:
so we're comparing miles to the most victorious coach in LSU history and saying how lackluster both of them are/were in the same breath
got it
Nailed it!
Posted on 12/9/09 at 12:55 pm to pdxlsufan
quote:
LSU had a serious case of Bama penis envy so they ran off Cholly Mac.
No doubt Mac's record vs. Bama was a factor and no doubt Mac was a fine coach, but there is also no doubt his teams dropped off in his last 5 yrs at LSU. It wasn't like he was kicked out the door without having a chance of righting the LSU ship. As I recall, he had a number of 9 win yrs in a row and then nose dived to 5 win seasons to never fully recover. I want to say Mac was given like 5 yrs to get the LSU program back to the status it had when he was winning 9 games a yr and he just couldn't do it.
Miles is facing much the same fan problem...3 top 5 finishes including a title has raised fan expectations though the roof. Some fans can't be content with good or top 13 results after he has fed them great or top 5 results.
Right or wrong, but that's just the way it is with some.
Personally, I think Coach, based off those 1st three yrs and the improved results this season from 08, has earned the right to see if he can turn things back around to be more in/line with his 1st three yrs before I jump into the bitch, moan, and attack my own program mode, but others feel different. I think it speaks poorly for us as LSU fans to have some among us so willing to attack our own so bitterly and constantly, but each to our own.
Posted on 12/9/09 at 12:58 pm to Tiger_n_ATL
quote:
Miles = Cholly Mac, just in a different era.
- behind the times
- slow to make changes
- stubborn
- 8-9 win coach maximum
- conservative
- poor public persona
I was at LSU for Cholly Mac's last 2 seasons, and always heard that had he not been so loyal to some of his assistants (slow to make changes), he would have had more success against ranked/winning teams. Would he have beaten Bear Bryant every year? No, but the long droughts between wins may have been different with more staff changes.
Coach Miles reacted quickly to the defensive demise last season, & I expect he'll take a long hard look at the drop in offensive production this year. Does that mean changes? Possibly.
Remember, change can result in both good & bad. Look no further than aTm, this decade's version of LSU in the 90s. Change, change, change, but no real sustained improvement.
IMHO, this was a 10-2/9-3 team going into the season, and although the losses (& some of the wins) were ugly to look at, the season was about what many of us expected.
I believe Coach Mac would have taken a 9-3 season and celebrated.
Posted on 12/9/09 at 2:55 pm to FTL Tiger
quote:
I'm having many of the same feelings about Miles as I had for Charlie Mac many years ago. CM was a very good Man and was 110% faithful to LSU, but I got tired of always finishing 2nd to Alabama. I was ready for a change, but once change was made, it was a disaster.
No, it wasn't. The first nine years after Charlie Mac were better than the last nine years under Charlie Mac. The disaster came long after Mac was gone, when we handed the program to Mike Archer because he was the choice of a bunch of steroid-juiced players, an idiotic faculty committee and the athletic director at Florida instead of hiring one of the much better coaches who were also vying for the job.
quote:
How many of you (who are old enough) think we are in a similar situation now that we were in at the end of Charlie Mac's tenure? Do you think Miles and Charlie Mac are the same type of coach (good but not great?)
We are perhaps in a similar situation, but they are not the same type of coaches. Mac was simply an old-school, fundamentally sound coach who was successful until the game just passed him by and he couldn't adjust. Miles is better at innovation and recruiting, but is, unfortunately, not anywhere close to as smart as Charlie Mac was.
quote:
Also, how many of you felt badly when CM was let go?
I liked Coach Mac, but was glad to see the change. It was time. I'm glad he got to coach that last year and basically have a good-bye tour (and a year as president of the AFCA) before retiring from coaching. We came within a few points of having a really special season that year, but instead, disappointingly ended up only 7-5.
Posted on 12/9/09 at 3:08 pm to pdxlsufan
quote:
Miles will likely take the Michigan job as soon as RichRod gets fired, which is likely next year. Just listening to all the LSU homers who berate Miles constantly tells me he's as good as gone when RichRod gets fired. You can take that to the bank.
Your bank will need a bailout. There is about a 0% chance that Miles will be offered the Michigan job.
Or any other job.
We're stuck with him until we fire him.
quote:
LSU had a serious case of Bama penis envy so they ran off Cholly Mac
Revisionist history. It was never about that. He always had major problems with Alabama, all the way back to 1963 (his second year) when we started playing them every year. Losing to Alabama almost every year for over 10 years did not have him in any danger of losing his job. It was when he started losing to Mississippi State, Tulane, Georgia, etc. also that things unraveled for him.
quote:
So don't worry, we won't have to live with Miles much longer.
I hope you are right. I really do.
quote:
The only problem is, there's no guarantee LSU will hire a better or at least equal coach to Miles
I wish that were the only problem, because that's not much of a problem. The real problem is getting rid of Miles soon enough. I fear we won't do that and that we'll allow him to run the program completely into the ground before we get rid of him.
At any rate, that argument always gets trotted out in defense of shitty coaches who are on the way to getting fired, but always ends up withering in the face of reason. The concept of keeping a shitty coach because his replacement MIGHT also be shitty is just simply bad logic.
quote:
our Bama penis envy may only get worse, not better
Well, obviously, every team in the nation envies Alabama and Texas right at this moment, but your characterization of it as some broader phenomenon of LSU fans shows that you are still living in the 70s at best, flat-out ridiculously ignorant most likely, and intentionally stirring shite at worst.
Posted on 12/9/09 at 3:22 pm to Dobermann
quote:
Miles has to maintain a reputation as a good boss to work for if he wants to attract quality assistants/coordinators in the future
Yeah, because that rings so true with Nick Saban, right? This is just a variation on that tired old argument that coaches won't want to come here if we fire (insert name of shitty coach that needs to be fired here). But it's complete bullshite. Coaches know the deal. They know their job is only as secure as their performance is good. They know if they frick up they'll get fired. It comes with the territory. They will come to a big time program that has all the tools you need for success and pays a lot of money, and they really won't give a flying frick what happened to the previous coach.
quote:
These guys were on staff in 2007, who was calling for their heads then?? Miles wanted to maintain some continuity in scheme, etc. and it proved to be a poor decision...no one saw 2008 coming.
bullshite. From the moment he announced the "Co-DCs" plan, you could hear the groans and grumbles from all over. Everybody, with the apparent exception of Miles himself, knew that was a stupid move as soon as he did it.
quote:
Agreed about the offense and there will be new staff in place next year.
So then are we going to be complete shite in special teams, causing us to lose the SEC West by three or more games YET AGAIN and have another shitty season, and give Miles yet another year to correct the problems he creates?
When you field a shitty team like Miles did in 2008, but your past accomplishments warrant giving you another year to fix the problems, you get another year to fix the fricking problemS. You don't get a year for EACH ONE. The 2008 team had multiple problems, the three biggest ones being 1) shitty defense, 2) shitty QB play and 3) shitty coaching. So far, Miles has only solved one of those problems, which is why we still have a shitty team that can't finish any closer than three games out of first place in the SEC West.
He had his chance to fix things. He failed. It's time to move on.
Posted on 12/9/09 at 3:33 pm to MiketheTiger69
quote:
the Saints under Jim Mora, who had the bad luck to win 12-13 games a year and not even make the playoffs because they were in the same division as San Francisco,
The Saints never won 12 or more games in a season and failed to at least make the playoffs.
quote:
To complain about Mac never beating the Bear and Bama is to neglect the facts-nobody else did either! Not Shug Jordan, Vince Dooley, Johnny Majors, Johnny Vaught or any other SEC or OOC coaches other than every now and then
Tennessee had a winning record against Alabama in 1960s, with Bear Bryant there the entire decade. And it's not like he just wasn't that good yet, either. He won three national championships in the 1960s.
quote:
One of the worst mistakes in LSU history was getting rid of Mac! Shortly after LSU fired him, Bryant retired and LSU would have taken over as the powerhouse team in the SEC and Mac probably would have won at least one NC. Instead Vince Dooley and Ga. pretty much became top dog, no pun intended.
I can honestly say that is the biggest bunch of horse shite that has ever been posted on the Rant. LSU got BETTER after McClendon was gone.
Posted on 12/9/09 at 4:17 pm to Nuts4LSU
quote:Tennessee was 4-5-1 against Bama during the 60s (then 1-9 during the 70s).
Tennessee had a winning record against Alabama in 1960s, with Bear Bryant there the entire decade.
quote:During Mac's 18 year tenure at LSU, the Tigers were 137-59-7, and only Bama in the SEC had more wins during that period. During the next 18 years the Tigers were 117-84-6 and UF, Tenn, Bama, Auburn and UGa won more games during that period.
LSU got BETTER after McClendon was gone.
Posted on 12/9/09 at 4:29 pm to Tiger_n_ATL
quote:
slow to make changes
I think the change made at the D Coord position last year was pretty quick. 1 year and changes were made.
I also think Les averages more than 8-9 wins a year and No, Cholly Mac did not have that high a winning percentage. LSU rarely won bowl games under Cholly Mac either.
Posted on 12/9/09 at 6:11 pm to blueridgeTiger
quote:
During Mac's 18 year tenure at LSU, the Tigers were 137-59-7, and only Bama in the SEC had more wins during that period.
EXACTLY. LSU spent 18 years chasing Bama. Mac couldn't get LSU to the same level as Bama, so he got canned.
Today, Miles is getting outcoached and outrecruited by Saban at Bama. Add in Urban Meyer and the occasional loss to Ole Piss or Arkansas and you've got a serious case of penis envy by many (not all and not this one) LSU fans who can't be happy with the damn, strong football team they've already got. The Saban hatred is rooted in envy, pure and simple.
So go ahead and run Miles out of town. He'll go to Michigan after RichRod is fired and LSU will plod along. Maybe we'll hire the next Saban or Meyer and it all work out for the best. At least Joe Dean doesn't get any input into the next hire. Better hope Alleva knows what the hell he's doing. His track record with Duke football coaches doesn't give me much hope.
Be careful what you wish for, Miles haters... you just might get it.
Posted on 12/9/09 at 6:25 pm to Nuts4LSU
quote:
The real problem is getting rid of Miles soon enough.
On second thought, you've won me over.
Look at Miles' sorry arse winning pct:
What a loser! How have we NOT fired Miles yet? WTF is the matter with Alleva? Are you kidding me? Send this loser packing to Michigan and let's hire a REAL coach. I'm tired of only winning 78.5% of our games.
Posted on 12/10/09 at 10:41 am to ShermanTxTiger
quote:
LSU rarely won bowl games under Cholly Mac either.
Mac's record in bowl games was 7-6. This included wins over an undefeated (I think) Texas team in the '63 Cotton Bowl (a 13-0 shutout), an undefeated and #1 ranked Arkansas team in the '66 Cotton Bowl(this with a 7-3 injury riddled team) and a victory in the '68 (?) Sugar Bowl over the nations only undefeated team, Wyoming, giving the SEC it's only bowl victory.
Posted on 12/10/09 at 10:49 am to MiketheTiger69
Nuts4LSU needs to get that flute out of his arse!
Posted on 12/10/09 at 11:17 am to mikeytig
quote:
Lots of problems with Charlie Mac and to call him Tom Landry is absurd
No it is not.
I have lived thru BOTH downfalls...
The downfall of each is very similar one to the other, while you may obviously attribute more accomplishments to Tom.
The game and MAINLY the value system and attitude of players changed. They held on to their ways and refused to compromise their principles...
it is called character...even if it brought them down
Posted on 12/10/09 at 11:29 am to rbdallas
quote:
What a loser! How have we NOT fired Miles yet? WTF is the matter with Alleva? Are you kidding me? Send this loser packing to Michigan and let's hire a REAL coach. I'm tired of only winning 78.5% of our games.
Perfect example of why NUMBERS alone is not a good evaluator. You can make them say anything.
Anyone who looks at the PAST and says that Miles has not produced is totally blind..if you use numbers alone, he has....
However, when PERSONNEL is evaluated (including coaches), there are a lot more factors to consider.
I am not a Miles supporter, nor am I a hater...
Having evaluated personnel for many years, I must tell you that WE HAVE PROBLEMS !...
they have NOT YET shown up in the overall numbers, but they will.
It is imperative that all personnel be evaluated not only using numbers (which reflect THE PAST) as well as character/behavior/decisions/ etc (which will reflect THE FUTURE).
It is here..in our FUTURE, that I see problems...
NEXT year will tell the tale.
If the OL / Dl / QB / etc continues to fall below their POTENTIAL, the numbers will fall.
If Miles can change his ways and become assertive in the coaching process, he may save LSU from a downward spiral and himself from a coach change.
The problem is, we will not know for a year and many here want to GUESS and have their GUESSES accepted as FACT.
Posted on 12/10/09 at 11:36 am to MiketheTiger69
quote:
This included wins over an undefeated (I think) Texas team in the '63 Cotton Bowl (a 13-0 shutout),
Texas was undefeated with only a tie to Rice spoiling their record - LSU was 8-1-1 also with a tie to Rice that season. Rice was 2-6-2 that season.
Posted on 12/10/09 at 12:27 pm to rbdallas
quote:
I am not a Miles supporter, nor am I a hater...
I am a LSU supporter and the "problems" we are having have shown up in the overall numbers of the program.
The question is not do we have problems with the LSU football program, but do we feel Miles can right our ship to the point that LSU can win the west or the SEC. That's a fair question to ask after 08 and 09.
Personally, I'm not 100% sure, but I am 100% sure that given his history of never before achieved success at LSU he deserves the right to try and this LSU fan will wait to see what happens before he starts attacking those working for a school he claims to support, but each to our own.
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