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re: Xbox Series X loading times are faster than the PS5...
Posted on 11/6/20 at 2:38 pm to Cs
Posted on 11/6/20 at 2:38 pm to Cs
As long as you understand what Quick Resume is now and that the PS4 has had it since 2015. 
Switcher already being in the PS5 UI means it's likely about ready or it wouldn't already be in the system.
Switcher already being in the PS5 UI means it's likely about ready or it wouldn't already be in the system.
This post was edited on 11/6/20 at 2:43 pm
1
Posted on 11/6/20 at 2:42 pm to UltimateHog
quote:
As long as you understand what Quick Resume is now and that the PS4 has had it since 2015
Quick Resume, which is the technology that Microsoft is promoting and that is being discussed in this thread, involves immediately saving the state of the game to the storage I/O. This is persistent even when the system is powered off.
The PS4, like the Xbox One, keeps the game data in RAM, even when it enters a low power state. Nothing is being saved. Nothing is being written to the HDD. No save state is created. It's just data existing in RAM that is immediately removed when a new game is loaded.
quote:
Switcher already being in the PS5 UI means it's likely about ready or it wouldn't already be in the system.
I do agree that this same functionality is coming to the PS5 relatively soon, and that this is the ultimate purpose of the Switcher.
The PS5 has 664 GB of available space, likely in part due to a cache reserve already being allocated on the SSD for this type of functionality.
This post was edited on 11/6/20 at 2:45 pm
Posted on 11/6/20 at 2:45 pm to Cs
quote:
The PS4, like the Xbox One, keeps the game data in RAM, even when it enters a low power state. Nothing is being saved. Nothing is being written to the HDD. No save state is created. It's just data existing in RAM that is immediately removed when a new game is loaded.
Correct, the next gen consoles have a different more improved version from the prior gen where you could only do 1 game.
quote:
It doesn't suspend the game nor does it save the game state. It just closes the game and cold boots the game you want.
This is what got you in trouble.
This post was edited on 11/6/20 at 2:50 pm
Posted on 11/6/20 at 3:24 pm to UltimateHog
quote:
This is what got you in trouble.
That was in the context of switching games.
Geaux mentioned this was for "pretty much all your games", to which you responded "PS5 does this too its in the UI video. Just don't know details. I never really used it on PS4". That is demonstrably false, as I've mentioned.
I then said this in response to that - "It doesn't suspend the game nor does it save the game state. It just closes the game and cold boots the game you want."
All of this is in the context of switching between games with Microsoft's Quick Resume tech. When you switch games on PS4 or PS5, it does not suspend the game nor does it save the game state. You have to save the game manually and then close the game to cold boot into something else.
This post was edited on 11/6/20 at 3:28 pm
Posted on 11/6/20 at 3:28 pm to Cs
Yeah and that's why I said no way PS5 doesn't even have the ability to do it for one game when the PS4 already does and mentioned that Switcher is what does this or will do this when it's ready.
PS4 saves your game state right where you are to instantly resume it but for a single game whereas next Gen consoles will do multiple. This is what I was saying I never used.
PS4 saves your game state right where you are to instantly resume it but for a single game whereas next Gen consoles will do multiple. This is what I was saying I never used.
This post was edited on 11/6/20 at 3:31 pm
Posted on 11/6/20 at 3:37 pm to UltimateHog
quote:
Yeah and that's why I said no way PS5 doesn't even have the ability to do it for one game when the PS4 already does
The PS4 doesn't. You responded to a comment from Geaux talking about suspending multiple games at once and hopping between them. Neither the PS4 nor Xbox One can do this - you have to close out each game before loading up a new title.
quote:
and mentioned that Switcher is what does this or will do this when it's ready.
And I've said I agree, this is the ultimate purpose of the Switcher icon in the current PS5 UI that will allow for multiple game states to be suspended in a cache reserve on the SSD.
But right now from watching various UI videos, it is currently not present, as each game is closed out when a new game is selected. Major outlets like Gamespot have already confirmed this.
quote:
PS4 saves your game state right where you are to instantly resume it but for a single game
Nothing is being saved when you suspend a game on PS4 or Xbox One. The game data is still sitting there in RAM, even in a low power state. Nothing is being written or saved to the storage medium when you minimize a game on these consoles. This is why if you want to load another game, you have to close out the game you currently have suspended to make room in RAM for the new game.
This is what the entire discussion about Quick Resume has been about - frame precise save states being written to the flash reserve on the SSD whenever you minimize the game, and doing this concurrently for multiple games.
This post was edited on 11/6/20 at 3:47 pm
Posted on 11/6/20 at 4:02 pm to Cs
quote:
The PS4 doesn't. You responded to a comment from Geaux talking about suspending multiple games at once and hopping between them. Neither the PS4 nor Xbox One can do this - you have to close out each game before loading up a new title.
Right, and from what you are saying the PS5 can't even do this no? That's why I was saying even the PS4 can do one game.
quote:
Nothing is being saved when you suspend a game on PS4 or Xbox One. The game data is still sitting there in RAM, even in a low power state. Nothing is being written or saved to the storage medium when you minimize a game on these consoles. This is why if you want to load another game, you have to close out the game you currently have suspended to make room in RAM for the new game.
Correct. With the power and space available no need to store it in ram anymore as it's not any faster.
There was a video a little while back running a game entirely stored in RAM on a PC and it wasn't any faster than even a mid grade SSD.
quote:
This is what the entire discussion about Quick Resume
To be fair the OP is about pointless last Gen game load times.
This post was edited on 11/6/20 at 4:09 pm
Posted on 11/6/20 at 4:17 pm to UltimateHog
quote:
Right, and from what you are saying the PS5 can't even do this no? That's why I was saying even the PS4 can do one game.
Yes, I'm saying the PS5 cannot currently do this. The hardware is obviously more than capable, as this just a matter of the necessary software being implemented. I'm sure it's coming.
quote:
Correct. With the power and space available no need to store it in ram anymore as it's not any faster. There was a video a little while back running a game entirely stored in RAM on a PC and it wasn't any faster than even a mid grade SSD.
It's pretty much a combination of the I/O throughput on the new SSDs combined with some clever software design to essentially "freeze" or take a snapshot of the game state immediately and preserve it in a dedicated cache on the SSD.
Modern RAM architectures like DDR4 and GDDR6 are still immensely faster than even the fastest SSD available. I'm assuming the reason that game wasn't faster than a mid-grade SSD (presumably SATA based) is due to the way that modern games are written, specifically for I/O.
Modern games generate a flurry of I/O requests when loading in new data, yet the APIs that are used disallow any scaling based on storage throughput. This is why a SATA SSD doesn't really offer any noticeable loading improvements in PC games over a NVME SSD, even though a PCIE 3.0 NVME SSD has 3x the throughput. The storage APIs simply can't saturate the I/O pipeline fast enough to take advantage of the faster hardware.
That's why that game, even though it was fully loaded into RAM, still failed to outperform a standard SSD. The bottleneck isn't the hardware, it's the software that governs how data is accessed and copied off the drive. All of this new hardware won't be fully utilized until more efficient storage APIs are written and employed.
Fortunately, this is currently happening and the next-gen consoles are expediting the process.
This post was edited on 11/6/20 at 4:35 pm
Posted on 11/6/20 at 4:34 pm to Cs
Yep. And now here on PC we're into 2nd Gen PCIE 4.0 SSD's with even more speed. Part of my current upgrade plan but as you said, those speeds still are mostly meaningless in gaming.
When the PS5 and it's crazy custom I/O first came out with over 5Gbps speeds that was at the time tied with the fastest on PC. But alas Gen 2 is a large bump now up over 7Gbps on PC. But still doesn't really matter for gaming.
When the PS5 and it's crazy custom I/O first came out with over 5Gbps speeds that was at the time tied with the fastest on PC. But alas Gen 2 is a large bump now up over 7Gbps on PC. But still doesn't really matter for gaming.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 4:35 pm to Cs
After this startling news, does anybody want to give me their PS5 reservation?
Posted on 11/6/20 at 4:45 pm to UltimateHog
quote:
Yep. And now here on PC we're into 2nd Gen PCIE 4.0 SSD's with even more speed. Part of my current upgrade plan but as you said, those speeds still are mostly meaningless in gaming.
When the PS5 and it's crazy custom I/O first came out with over 5Gbps speeds that was at the time tied with the fastest on PC. But alas Gen 2 is a large bump now up over 7Gbps on PC. But still doesn't really matter for gaming.
It will matter soon. Microsoft is bringing those DirectStorage APIs to Windows 10, and they are currently working with multiple developers on the final implementation.
The problem that would still exist is compression - both the PS5 and Series X have dedicated hardware decompression that equates to the computational output of about a dozen Zen 2 cores. So even if these newer PC games employed modern storage APIs to take advantage of newer NVME SSDs, everything would still be bottlenecked as even a 5950X would be completely bogged down trying to decompress assets at such a high rate.
Hence why Microsoft's partnership with Nvidia and AMD was huge. Both Ampere and Big Navi will allow for compressed assets to be copied off storage and decompressed directly by the GPU, and then funneling those decompressed data to the CPU. It's going to result in astronomical improvements in throughput.
I was planning on simply going with a standard SATA SSD for my next build, but after the recent revelations regarding DirectStorage on Windows 10 and Ampere/Big Navi based decompression, I'll definitely be going with the fastest PCIE 4.0 SSD I can find.
This post was edited on 11/6/20 at 4:49 pm
Posted on 11/6/20 at 4:48 pm to Cs
Yeah I've posted about that in the PC thread above a few times as part of AMD's new GPU drop and its features. DirectML is a game changer.
I'm getting the 6800XT for myself.
Sabrent Rocket 4 Plus is the current fastest, Samsung 980 Pro behind it.
quote:
"In a recent disclosure regarding their Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S system, Microsoft confirmed that both of their next-generation consoles would support Machine learning for games with DirectML. Through their collaboration with AMD when creating their new consoles, AMD has a chance to replace DLSS with an alternative which will apply to gamers on both PC and Xbox, giving developers little reason to support DLSS over DirectML Super Resolution."
Through close collaboration and partnership between Xbox and AMD, not only have we delivered on this promise, we have gone even further introducing additional next-generation innovation such as hardware accelerated Machine Learning capabilities for better NPC intelligence, more lifelike animation, and improved visual quality via techniques such as ML powered super resolution.
I'm getting the 6800XT for myself.
quote:
I'll definitely be going with the fastest PCIE 4.0 SSD I can find.
Sabrent Rocket 4 Plus is the current fastest, Samsung 980 Pro behind it.
This post was edited on 11/6/20 at 5:10 pm
Posted on 11/6/20 at 5:54 pm to Cs
quote:
Quick Resume on the Series X|S.
I watched MetalJesus' breakdown of the console recently and I thought the Quick Resume feature is pretty cool. Is it viturally like making a save state?
Posted on 11/6/20 at 6:35 pm to The Dudes Rug
quote:
I watched MetalJesus' breakdown of the console recently and I thought the Quick Resume feature is pretty cool. Is it viturally like making a save state?
I think it's functionally similar to virtual memory in Windows. Windows will write memory pages to your storage device when needed, and then load them into physical memory again once a program requires those data.
Quick Resume is taking the contents of RAM for a given game state and immediately writing it to a cache reserve on the SSD. And this can be done for multiple games. Series X will have about 13.5 GB of usable RAM for games, so it takes just a few seconds to write those contents to the SSD.
So if you're in the middle of a car chase in Cyberpunk, you can literally just hit the home button on the controller and load up another game. When you do this, the RAM mapping for Cyberpunk is copied over to the SSD to create persistence for your place in the game. You could then go play other games for weeks or months and come back to Cyberpunk and pick up exactly where you left off in the middle of that car chase.
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