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Started By
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re: Finch's Guide to Obtaining a GPU/CPU and Trading Thread
Posted on 3/30/22 at 8:21 am to finchmeister08
Posted on 3/30/22 at 8:21 am to finchmeister08
quote:
Educate me
"Reference cards" don't really exist in the RTX 30 series. To be a reference card, you need two traits: 1. Use the reference PCB issued by Nvidia as the min-spec standard component/layout and 2. ...your cooling solution is from Nvidia...
Now, obviously that second criterion is fairly arbitrary, but it's actually become the point of confusion, because in every previous generation, the "Nvidia card" used the reference PCB, so they were by definition reference cards. So people who didn't understand the PCB distinction simply started calling "the Nvidia card" the reference card without knowing why. This is the first generation in which Nvidia isn't using the reference PCB in their in house cards. To put a finer point on it, this is the reference 3080 PCB, followed by the in house custom PCB in the 3080FE:
Not only a massively different layout, but different caps, etc. To my recollection, the only cards this gen using the reference PCB are the Palit, etc, of the world. It actually pissed off the AIB partners, because Nvidia used a custom, upgraded PCB in their FE cards and then sold them for MSRP, which utterly fricked the price points of the AIB partner cards. But, that's a more detailed topic for another day.
The short version is that if you were to buy a waterblock for an RTX 3080 that is designed to fit a "reference 3080", it won't even come close to working on a 3080FE, because the PCBs, even ignoring the cutout, are vastly different.
0
Posted on 3/30/22 at 8:24 am to UltimateHog
quote:
Right, there are a TON of AIB models so being middle of the pack is behind a lot of cards. Majority of AIB cards are better and always have been better.
For example there are several AIB 3080's that run as much as 16 degrees cooler than the 3080 FE, all at a quieter noise db levels too. You can take the blower out, but it's also still kinda there in terms of still hotter and louder.
I was hoping to get to this after I replied to the other, but I have to get on the road out of parish this morning. I'll loop back around later today
This post was edited on 3/30/22 at 8:24 am
Posted on 3/30/22 at 12:22 pm to UltimateHog
Alright, on my phone, so this won’t be as detailed as I would like, but:
To start, even without going into any further detail, those results, at those price points, still has the FE as the best value card. And since then, AIB cards have increased in price by, literally, hundreds of dollars. That FTW Ultra that tops the chart at $810? It’s on EVGA’s website now for $920. But good luck getting one, because they aren’t really making it anymore. The only one you can get now is the 12gb version, which is currently listed on BestBuy for a staggering $1,300. And what does that get you? Less than 5% performance gain.
And that’s stock. And I’m the first to tell you that Nvidia’s out of the box settings are absolutely moronic. Not only is the voltage curve vastly too conservative, but the fan curve is criminal. It basically lets the temp free rise until it hits 70c, then the fans start screaming to catch up, which is why they run so damned loud. Even without an undervolt, which I highly suggest anyone with any 30 series card do, simply changing the fan curve to ramp up earlier will paradoxically keep noise down, as it’s easier to manage heat than it is to reduce heat once it’s soaked. I have a rock stable 900mv/1905mhz undervolt on my 3080fe and a custom fan curve that literally doesn’t allow my fans to ramp up higher than 55% (1,650rpm), which is a far cry from the 1,977rpm that chart reports. And even playing the most intense of RTX games, I rarely go above 68c, and never above 75c. With those settings, my Port Royal scores are significantly above average for 3080s, and I paid $700. There was a point I had a 3070fe, 3080fe, and a 3080 FTW3 Ultra (which I got for MSRP). Kept the 3080fe and sold the others, as paying an extra $250 for a minuscule performance boost didn’t make sense to me.
So in sum, am I saying that the FE cards are the best cards? Nope. They are my favorite, but that’s not the same thing. But I ardently disagree with the blanket statement that AIB cards are “much better”, especially in the context of price. If you win a raffle and get to choose between a 3080fe and a FTW3 Ultra, sure, take the Ultra. But talking to people in the context of paying MSRP from a retailer for an RTX card? Steering people away from the FE line makes zero sense to me if value to performance is being taken into consideration, at all.
To start, even without going into any further detail, those results, at those price points, still has the FE as the best value card. And since then, AIB cards have increased in price by, literally, hundreds of dollars. That FTW Ultra that tops the chart at $810? It’s on EVGA’s website now for $920. But good luck getting one, because they aren’t really making it anymore. The only one you can get now is the 12gb version, which is currently listed on BestBuy for a staggering $1,300. And what does that get you? Less than 5% performance gain.
And that’s stock. And I’m the first to tell you that Nvidia’s out of the box settings are absolutely moronic. Not only is the voltage curve vastly too conservative, but the fan curve is criminal. It basically lets the temp free rise until it hits 70c, then the fans start screaming to catch up, which is why they run so damned loud. Even without an undervolt, which I highly suggest anyone with any 30 series card do, simply changing the fan curve to ramp up earlier will paradoxically keep noise down, as it’s easier to manage heat than it is to reduce heat once it’s soaked. I have a rock stable 900mv/1905mhz undervolt on my 3080fe and a custom fan curve that literally doesn’t allow my fans to ramp up higher than 55% (1,650rpm), which is a far cry from the 1,977rpm that chart reports. And even playing the most intense of RTX games, I rarely go above 68c, and never above 75c. With those settings, my Port Royal scores are significantly above average for 3080s, and I paid $700. There was a point I had a 3070fe, 3080fe, and a 3080 FTW3 Ultra (which I got for MSRP). Kept the 3080fe and sold the others, as paying an extra $250 for a minuscule performance boost didn’t make sense to me.
So in sum, am I saying that the FE cards are the best cards? Nope. They are my favorite, but that’s not the same thing. But I ardently disagree with the blanket statement that AIB cards are “much better”, especially in the context of price. If you win a raffle and get to choose between a 3080fe and a FTW3 Ultra, sure, take the Ultra. But talking to people in the context of paying MSRP from a retailer for an RTX card? Steering people away from the FE line makes zero sense to me if value to performance is being taken into consideration, at all.
This post was edited on 3/30/22 at 12:30 pm
Posted on 3/30/22 at 2:24 pm to Joshjrn
They're okay cards as I said, middle of the road. Slightly better than blower style but not a lot. Well behind the top model AIB cards. Pay a little more and get much better cooling and better overclocking (and not as ugly 
).
Seems like you're just talking about price being a set price and the others not which doesn't really have anything to do with AIB cards outperforming FE cards by good margins almost across the board. But again, this is nothing new, AIB always are better than FE and reference designs and it's always been that way.
Shocking, the biggest Nvidia fanboy on the board only likes FE cards because muh Nvidia even when the performance is worse across the board and they're ugly AF.
). Seems like you're just talking about price being a set price and the others not which doesn't really have anything to do with AIB cards outperforming FE cards by good margins almost across the board. But again, this is nothing new, AIB always are better than FE and reference designs and it's always been that way.
quote:
They are my favorite, but that’s not the same thing.
Shocking, the biggest Nvidia fanboy on the board only likes FE cards because muh Nvidia even when the performance is worse across the board and they're ugly AF.
This post was edited on 3/30/22 at 2:36 pm
Posted on 3/30/22 at 2:38 pm to UltimateHog
Anywho, got selected for another 3060ti in EVGA queue. Not really worth it now though as they go for that price even on ebay.
Also lol @ EVGA charging $23 for shipping + tax which takes it over what they go for on ebay.
Also lol @ EVGA charging $23 for shipping + tax which takes it over what they go for on ebay.
This post was edited on 3/30/22 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 3/30/22 at 2:39 pm to UltimateHog
What I’m saying is that you’re ignoring price completely. If someone can buy a 3080fe for $700 and a FTW3 for $1,300, I think it’s silly to push people away from the FE. You said “much better”. They aren’t, by any metric, including cooling, as long as you edit the fan curve, which has nothing to do with the hardware. Some AIB cards are a bit better in some areas. None are so much so that I would justify the price increase.
And you can be snide about the FE being my favorite, but I literally could have bought any card I wanted. I also owned a FTW3 Ultra. I choose the 3080FE after an extensive amount of research. If you want to write that off to ownership bias, I think that’s quite the fricking mistake
And you can be snide about the FE being my favorite, but I literally could have bought any card I wanted. I also owned a FTW3 Ultra. I choose the 3080FE after an extensive amount of research. If you want to write that off to ownership bias, I think that’s quite the fricking mistake
Posted on 3/30/22 at 2:47 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
What I’m saying is that you’re ignoring price completely.
No, no one is talking about price but you.
quote:
And you can be snide about the FE being my favorite, but I literally could have bought any card I wanted. I also owned a FTW3 Ultra. I choose the 3080FE after an extensive amount of research. If you want to write that off to ownership bias, I think that’s quite the fricking mistake
You can buy whatever you want, just don't fanboy to me about it because you bought a middle of the road card that's also very ugly in design.
This post was edited on 3/30/22 at 2:49 pm
Posted on 3/30/22 at 4:43 pm to UltimateHog
I think it's the most attractive card of this generation. But I acknowledge that's personal preference.
And if you want to backtrack all the way from that (all) AIB cards are "much better" than the FE cards to "if you utterly ignore price, some AIB cards are slightly better than FE cards in performance", I won't argue with you. Just glad we clarified that point
And if you want to backtrack all the way from that (all) AIB cards are "much better" than the FE cards to "if you utterly ignore price, some AIB cards are slightly better than FE cards in performance", I won't argue with you. Just glad we clarified that point
Posted on 3/30/22 at 5:31 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
And if you want to backtrack all the way from that (all) AIB cards are "much better" than the FE cards to "if you utterly ignore price, some AIB cards are slightly better than FE cards in performance", I won't argue with you. Just glad we clarified that point
I mean, you jumped into the convo talking price which had nothing to do with anything.
The post Finch made you are in the conversation for is "All other cards but FE are garbage" his statement.
Not sure what you thought you were reading and then interjecting yourself into, but try to keep up with the OP.
Always annoying when posters don't read what they are replying to. Don't be that guy.
This post was edited on 3/30/22 at 5:34 pm
Posted on 3/30/22 at 8:20 pm to UltimateHog
I wasn’t replying to Finch; I was replying to you. I think Finch is wrong in saying non FE cards are garbage. I think you’re wrong in telling someone shopping retail that AIB cards are “much better” than the FE cards. The two aren’t mutually exclusive
Posted on 3/30/22 at 9:45 pm to Joshjrn
That's more about your definition of much better.
To me ~5 FPS, higher base clocks, better thermals, quieter operation is more towards much better. The only cards FE's are better than are the Zotac ones to no surprise.
And to Finch's point like I said, he was referring to resale anyways in which case it's true anything but FE goes for shite now. That late March price drop rumor was true they have plummeted.
To me ~5 FPS, higher base clocks, better thermals, quieter operation is more towards much better. The only cards FE's are better than are the Zotac ones to no surprise.
And to Finch's point like I said, he was referring to resale anyways in which case it's true anything but FE goes for shite now. That late March price drop rumor was true they have plummeted.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:21 pm to UltimateHog
Best buy drop? Evga 3070 for 679.
Posted on 3/30/22 at 10:32 pm to UltimateHog
Except that your 5fps difference, as tiny as it is, is easily explained by the heat, which is easily fixed by a simple software tweak. Again, my 3080fe has basically zero in common with the stats listed on that chart. Which cards from this generation have you had hands on as far as actually using?
This post was edited on 3/30/22 at 10:33 pm
Posted on 3/30/22 at 11:54 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
Except that your 5fps difference, as tiny as it is, is easily explained by the heat, which is easily fixed by a simple software tweak.
FE's thermals and noise levels are because of the fans and cooler design overall. AIB's are better as always as I've said. The FPS difference is because the AIB cards are clocked significantly higher because they have better coolers, they also OC better again because they have better coolers.
That's why those 1800MHz cards run cooler and quieter still than a 1700MHz FE. They also tend to have better OC headroom due to again having better coolers.
And I have had a lot of cards by now, currently have a 3060ti, 3070ti, and 3080 sitting here. My 6800XT was still my favorite of them all and prefer their software setup how about you? Oh wait...
Posted on 3/31/22 at 8:28 am to UltimateHog
6800xt? I'm not sure you want to throw stones about ugly cards
And I asked which cards you've actually used, because I'm curious if you've had any interaction with the FE line outside of holding one in a box, or if all of this animosity is coming purely from a TechRadar chart, as my personal experience with the FE line has little in common with what they're showing in that chart, which makes me curious about their methodology. I'm also genuinely not sure why you keep fixating on advertised base clocks instead of real world boost clocks, especially in a case environment instead of a test bench. Every reviewer I've seen who has done so has ended up going "oh, yeah, that makes sense once you put the tiny space heaters inside an enclosed case..."
But regardless, this conversation has gone staggeringly far afield, with us both talking past one another at this point. Finch said non-FE cards are garbage (which I disagree with). You replied "AIB cards are much better than reference if you're keeping." I said that I wasn't sure I would concede that point, as I don't think the performance difference is significant, while the price points are. Your position is that price doesn't matter, and that (apparently) only out of box performance matters when it comes to cooling.
In short, we should probably just go back to being nice on the other thread re: Zen 4 processors
And I asked which cards you've actually used, because I'm curious if you've had any interaction with the FE line outside of holding one in a box, or if all of this animosity is coming purely from a TechRadar chart, as my personal experience with the FE line has little in common with what they're showing in that chart, which makes me curious about their methodology. I'm also genuinely not sure why you keep fixating on advertised base clocks instead of real world boost clocks, especially in a case environment instead of a test bench. Every reviewer I've seen who has done so has ended up going "oh, yeah, that makes sense once you put the tiny space heaters inside an enclosed case..."
But regardless, this conversation has gone staggeringly far afield, with us both talking past one another at this point. Finch said non-FE cards are garbage (which I disagree with). You replied "AIB cards are much better than reference if you're keeping." I said that I wasn't sure I would concede that point, as I don't think the performance difference is significant, while the price points are. Your position is that price doesn't matter, and that (apparently) only out of box performance matters when it comes to cooling.
In short, we should probably just go back to being nice on the other thread re: Zen 4 processors
Posted on 3/31/22 at 12:15 pm to Joshjrn
damn, best buy dropped FEs an hour ago
Posted on 3/31/22 at 12:19 pm to finchmeister08
Tried for a 3080 for shits and giggles, but not too worried about it now. Looks like the secondary market has absolutely tanked.
Posted on 3/31/22 at 12:22 pm to finchmeister08
Anyone need a 3080? EVGA FTW3 Ultra B Stock NIB. Got it and ended up getting lucky on a Strix drop, so don't need the extra one. I'll sell it for what I paid
Posted on 3/31/22 at 1:22 pm to bamabenny
quote:
Tried for a 3080 for shits and giggles, but not too worried about it now. Looks like the secondary market has absolutely tanked.
My perfect scenario would be for the RTX 4080 to drop this fall with immediate availability, but LHR, so I can get a nice bump when I sell my 3080FE. And the sad thing is that it’s not even really about the money; it just means I get less side eye from my wife if I can talk about net expense instead of sticker price when a shiny new piece of hardware shows up at the house
This post was edited on 3/31/22 at 1:32 pm
Posted on 3/31/22 at 1:25 pm to Joshjrn
I’ll probably do the same if that scenario happens
Why not, right?
Why not, right?
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