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Can we have a “Leveraged ETF’s: explained” thread?
Posted on 4/30/20 at 10:29 am
Posted on 4/30/20 at 10:29 am
My brother (who has a mentality that one of these days he’ll throw a $100 bill in the air and it will magically come down with 3 extra zeros on it) calls me with this shite sometimes: “JNUG was up 17% today!”
Me: “Cool. I have no clue how that shite works, but good luck. My AAPL was up 2.75%.”
Then I come here and see stuff like JNUG, GUSH, SQQQ, etc. brought up occasionally and I go google a little and come to the conclusion that they’re more volatile than a freshman girlfriend, but I still don’t know exactly why... Makes a guy curious, so I thought an ELI5 type post would be interesting.
For the record I’m not interested in making these things anymore than something to have fun with when I have a couple hundred extra dollars every now and then, but it does seem like it would be worth a shot sometimes.
Me: “Cool. I have no clue how that shite works, but good luck. My AAPL was up 2.75%.”
Then I come here and see stuff like JNUG, GUSH, SQQQ, etc. brought up occasionally and I go google a little and come to the conclusion that they’re more volatile than a freshman girlfriend, but I still don’t know exactly why... Makes a guy curious, so I thought an ELI5 type post would be interesting.
For the record I’m not interested in making these things anymore than something to have fun with when I have a couple hundred extra dollars every now and then, but it does seem like it would be worth a shot sometimes.
Posted on 4/30/20 at 10:37 am to prostyleoffensetime
The value of the leveraged ETF degrades over time. I don't completely understand how the degradation works, but it makes holding leveraged ETF's a bad play. Get in and out quickly. I personally prefer options if we are going for leveraged or riskier money.
Posted on 4/30/20 at 10:40 am to prostyleoffensetime
strictly for day trading. Holding it longer than that will result in substantial loss
Posted on 4/30/20 at 10:44 am to prostyleoffensetime
Why to not buy leveraged ETFs:
1. They are very expensive.
2. There is nothing you can buy to get 3xS&P500, so they use many complex strategies to attempt to achieve this. Most folks would think volatility is your friend, but when using option strategies and being forced to rebalance to match an index in some cases on a daily basis, volatility up or down usually creates much more losses than gains.
3. Leverage cuts both ways, but protecting on the downside could be argued is more valuable than outperformance on the updside. Why? If you lose 10% value, it will take about 11% gain to get back to even. A 25% loss needs a 33% gain, a 50% loss needs a 100% gain, and an 80% loss needs a 500% gain.
TLDR - Don't buy leveraged ETFs for the long term
1. They are very expensive.
2. There is nothing you can buy to get 3xS&P500, so they use many complex strategies to attempt to achieve this. Most folks would think volatility is your friend, but when using option strategies and being forced to rebalance to match an index in some cases on a daily basis, volatility up or down usually creates much more losses than gains.
3. Leverage cuts both ways, but protecting on the downside could be argued is more valuable than outperformance on the updside. Why? If you lose 10% value, it will take about 11% gain to get back to even. A 25% loss needs a 33% gain, a 50% loss needs a 100% gain, and an 80% loss needs a 500% gain.
TLDR - Don't buy leveraged ETFs for the long term
Posted on 4/30/20 at 11:32 am to prostyleoffensetime
Example of leveraged decay:
3xleveraged ETF value is $10
The correlated index goes up 10%, 3x value goes up 30%. Total value is now $13
Next day, same correlated index goes down 10%, therefore 30% for 3x leveraged etf. Total value is now $9.10.
You lost 9% of your value because of the decay.
3xleveraged ETF value is $10
The correlated index goes up 10%, 3x value goes up 30%. Total value is now $13
Next day, same correlated index goes down 10%, therefore 30% for 3x leveraged etf. Total value is now $9.10.
You lost 9% of your value because of the decay.
Posted on 4/30/20 at 12:22 pm to prostyleoffensetime
If you can emotionally stomach the volatility, leveraged ETFs can be effectively used. It's not for the lay person because it is extremely risky (but not because of the 'seesaw action' decay described by others because the market typically goes up more than it goes down; keep in mind that 'decay' math works the same way for 'growth'). I trade my leveraged ETF once a quarter, selling highs and buying lows. I've done extremely well and my losses during the downturn are just something you need to be able to handle. I know the risks and choose to play the game. It's been a winner for me.
This post was edited on 4/30/20 at 12:23 pm
Posted on 4/30/20 at 12:45 pm to Titan
quote:
strictly for day trading. Holding it longer than that will result in substantial loss
What if it was in the gutter when you bought it?
Posted on 4/30/20 at 4:00 pm to Tri City Tigers
If they're holding futures decay occurs when the contracts roll as well.
Posted on 4/30/20 at 5:38 pm to prostyleoffensetime
Think about it like this. Assume you have a leveraged ETF that targets a 2x return on an index. Assume both the index and the ETF have a starting value of 100.
If the index goes down 10%, it’s value will be 90. Since the ETF is meant to return 2x the index, it will go down 20% to 80.
So far, we have no problem.
However, consider now the return needed to get back to breakeven for the index:
The index must increase 11.1% (100/90) to get back to 100.
Now look what happens to the 2x leveraged ETF:
If the index returned 11.1%, the ETF will have returned 22.2%, but 80 times 1.222 is only 97.8, as opposed to the full 100.
So even though the index is back to breakeven, you’re still 2.2% in the hole on your leveraged ETF. Wash and repeat many times and it becomes an asset that wastes away over time, particularly as volatility increases.
If the index goes down 10%, it’s value will be 90. Since the ETF is meant to return 2x the index, it will go down 20% to 80.
So far, we have no problem.
However, consider now the return needed to get back to breakeven for the index:
The index must increase 11.1% (100/90) to get back to 100.
Now look what happens to the 2x leveraged ETF:
If the index returned 11.1%, the ETF will have returned 22.2%, but 80 times 1.222 is only 97.8, as opposed to the full 100.
So even though the index is back to breakeven, you’re still 2.2% in the hole on your leveraged ETF. Wash and repeat many times and it becomes an asset that wastes away over time, particularly as volatility increases.
Posted on 4/30/20 at 9:11 pm to prostyleoffensetime
These leverage ETFs try to put a multiple on daily returns. Depending on the daily sequence of returns, even if the underlier is up, the leveraged fund can be down. This unpredictability makes them unattractive for the vast majority of investors- not only do you have to gauge whether something is going up or down (which is hard enough), but also the daily gyrations that lead to that conclusion (which may as well be impossible). That’s why most people who use these things for a real purpose other than “it’s worked out for me” are hedgers looking for a daily position.
Posted on 5/1/20 at 9:31 am to RedStickBR
Over time would you say the major indices have had more "up" days or more "down" days?
Posted on 5/1/20 at 10:33 am to RoyalWe
The S&P500 has probably had more "up" days, but I would have to research to confirm.
I think it would be interesting to do a daily analysis of the S&P 500, apply the leveraged returns, and compare the results to the underlying index to determine the long-term impact of leveraged funds. Sounds like a weekend project for me- will post results.
I think it would be interesting to do a daily analysis of the S&P 500, apply the leveraged returns, and compare the results to the underlying index to determine the long-term impact of leveraged funds. Sounds like a weekend project for me- will post results.
Posted on 5/1/20 at 10:51 am to prostyleoffensetime
I know I bought JETS, TNA, and UPRO at their trough and sold a couple days ago and made a good bit of money.
I have autobuy orders on all 3 if they get near their 52 week low again.
They aren't meant to hold long term.
I have autobuy orders on all 3 if they get near their 52 week low again.
They aren't meant to hold long term.
Posted on 5/1/20 at 12:08 pm to RoyalWe
Over time, yes, there have been more up days. But let’s consider if the market trades sideways for a while within a 20% range. The index over that period would be flattish, while the leveraged ETF would suffer decay every time you cycle through the range. And what makes these so risky is that you may never recover that decay if the sideways trading persists long enough for the decay to become insurmountable.
This post was edited on 5/1/20 at 2:36 pm
Posted on 5/1/20 at 12:19 pm to RedStickBR
Can I short two opposite leveraged ETFs in equal amounts and rake in the arbitrage? Sounds like a sure thing. Who wants to join my new index fund?
Posted on 5/1/20 at 1:37 pm to blackoutdore
Pulled S&P500 daily data from 1/3/1978 forward. Applied all the maths and considered if you invested $100 on any given day what the value would grow to for 1x, 2x, and 3x levered fund.
$100 invest in 1978 would now be worth $3,104.27 in 1x, $24,650.67 in 2x, and $46,159.79 in 3x. Over the past 22 years, 53.3% of the days have been up, 46.5% have been down, and 0.2% have been flat.
The 3x doesn't always win... here's a quick table since 2000 showing which fund would have been best to be in. The 3x does dominates in every date up to August of 1986. As expected,once you get into major downward volatilty the levered funds start to lose.
Buy Date | 1x Value | 2x Value | 3x Value | Winner
1-Jan-00 | $198.23 | $174.40 | $66.85 | 1x
1-Jan-01 | $220.59 | $226.91 | $106.87 | 2x
1-Jan-02 | $253.68 | $314.13 | $186.52 | 2x
1-Jan-03 | $331.03 | $572.08 | $506.96 | 2x
1-Jan-04 | $261.93 | $368.74 | $274.01 | 2x
1-Jan-05 | $240.32 | $314.24 | $219.57 | 2x
1-Jan-06 | $233.31 | $299.33 | $207.38 | 2x
1-Jan-07 | $205.35 | $234.20 | $145.70 | 2x
1-Jan-08 | $198.35 | $224.17 | $141.82 | 2x
1-Jan-09 | $322.44 | $702.97 | $1,025.04 | 3x
1-Jan-10 | $261.18 | $496.78 | $680.94 | 3x
1-Jan-11 | $231.58 | $403.49 | $523.53 | 3x
1-Jan-12 | $231.59 | $426.26 | $617.95 | 3x
1-Jan-13 | $204.21 | $336.82 | $444.67 | 3x
1-Jan-14 | $157.57 | $203.05 | $212.06 | 3x
1-Jan-15 | $141.46 | $165.78 | $159.53 | 2x
1-Jan-16 | $142.49 | $172.31 | $175.28 | 3x
1-Jan-17 | $130.09 | $146.11 | $140.45 | 2x
1-Jan-18 | $108.93 | $102.92 | $83.61 | 1x
1-Jan-19 | $116.18 | $120.54 | $110.77 | 2x
$100 invest in 1978 would now be worth $3,104.27 in 1x, $24,650.67 in 2x, and $46,159.79 in 3x. Over the past 22 years, 53.3% of the days have been up, 46.5% have been down, and 0.2% have been flat.
The 3x doesn't always win... here's a quick table since 2000 showing which fund would have been best to be in. The 3x does dominates in every date up to August of 1986. As expected,once you get into major downward volatilty the levered funds start to lose.
Buy Date | 1x Value | 2x Value | 3x Value | Winner
1-Jan-00 | $198.23 | $174.40 | $66.85 | 1x
1-Jan-01 | $220.59 | $226.91 | $106.87 | 2x
1-Jan-02 | $253.68 | $314.13 | $186.52 | 2x
1-Jan-03 | $331.03 | $572.08 | $506.96 | 2x
1-Jan-04 | $261.93 | $368.74 | $274.01 | 2x
1-Jan-05 | $240.32 | $314.24 | $219.57 | 2x
1-Jan-06 | $233.31 | $299.33 | $207.38 | 2x
1-Jan-07 | $205.35 | $234.20 | $145.70 | 2x
1-Jan-08 | $198.35 | $224.17 | $141.82 | 2x
1-Jan-09 | $322.44 | $702.97 | $1,025.04 | 3x
1-Jan-10 | $261.18 | $496.78 | $680.94 | 3x
1-Jan-11 | $231.58 | $403.49 | $523.53 | 3x
1-Jan-12 | $231.59 | $426.26 | $617.95 | 3x
1-Jan-13 | $204.21 | $336.82 | $444.67 | 3x
1-Jan-14 | $157.57 | $203.05 | $212.06 | 3x
1-Jan-15 | $141.46 | $165.78 | $159.53 | 2x
1-Jan-16 | $142.49 | $172.31 | $175.28 | 3x
1-Jan-17 | $130.09 | $146.11 | $140.45 | 2x
1-Jan-18 | $108.93 | $102.92 | $83.61 | 1x
1-Jan-19 | $116.18 | $120.54 | $110.77 | 2x
Posted on 5/1/20 at 7:15 pm to blackoutdore
The optimum is something like 2.4x.
Posted on 5/1/20 at 7:33 pm to RedStickBR
Here’s the flip side people aren’t talking about:
In a bull market, these leveraged funds will often return SUBSTANTIALLY more than 3x the index. Look at TQQQ from 2008 to 2019.
Of course, you better not buy a high or you can get into some trouble, because of what others have mentioned.
In a bull market, these leveraged funds will often return SUBSTANTIALLY more than 3x the index. Look at TQQQ from 2008 to 2019.
Of course, you better not buy a high or you can get into some trouble, because of what others have mentioned.
Posted on 6/6/20 at 7:27 am to tenderfoot tigah
quote:
The value of the leveraged ETF degrades over time. I don't completely understand how the degradation works, but it makes holding leveraged ETF's a bad play
That is not accurate. Go look at leveraged long finds TQQQ and UPRO over the last decade and show me the degradation. $10,000 invested in TQQQ in 2010 would be worth $420,000 today
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