re: Why did it take so long for police to finally engage the Orlando shooter?

what I can't figure out is how a club full of people couldnt subdue one guy with a gun.

bull rush him, sneak him, something.. sure, some may have gotten shot but there was a chance he would have shot you if you ran..

I know chaos ensued inside that place and I may have run and hidden as well.. easy to play monday morning qb

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There were no officers killed including the off duty officer.

One SWAT officer took a head shot that was deflected by his Kevlar gear.

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Well I'm confused. If the security guy exchanged fire with the shooter, what happened to him? He emptied his gun and the shooter left him alone? Why would the shooter allow him to live if the security guy emptied his clip? Maybe it was total chaos and the security guy ran or played dead.

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Well I'm confused. If the security guy exchanged fire with the shooter, what happened to him? He emptied his gun and the shooter left him alone? Why would the shooter allow him to live if the security guy emptied his clip? Maybe it was total chaos and the security guy ran or played dead.

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Maybe he emptied his clip and realized there's not really much more he could do so he retreated.

If we're playing that hypothetical, I can't exactly blame a cop for not going into or staying in a building with no weapon going up against a guy who is just shooting at everything he sees.

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waiting 3 full hours for these hero's to take action? Lying there bleeding to death while they stood there 3 full hours trying to think of a way to safely approach an ongoing situation. Sad.

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Again, it's a no win situation.

If they bum rush the place on little intelligence, and he had bombs set up going off left and right killing more clubgoers AND SWAT team members, aren't we saying the same sort of thing, blasting them for killing innocent lives by ambushing a place without good intel first?

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I was talking about this with my good e-friend, shel, the other day on here.

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Best e-friend, no?

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I think the way these tragedies unfold warrant a revisit on how police handle the situations.

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That obviously can only help, I just think they'll never get it right 100% of the time, but "we" will pounce on them every time they get it wrong, whether it's legit or unfair.

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Yeah, I agree it's a no-win, but since we are dealing with innocent lives, I can't say it's entirely a bad thing.

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Yea, we're probably splitting hairs and generally in agreement, I just think you have humans on the other end of it as well. It's tough to blame them automatically if things don't end well because there is literally nothing they can do to guarantee a 100% success rate.

And also, speaking generally of course, you almost have to view it as protecting your guys(the SWAT team) first and foremost even above the victims(there's obviously likely to be different moments in a conflict where this would change), because if you don't and SWAT team members die, they're no longer able to help victims. Kinda the same line of thinking as to why if you're a parent you should always put on your own oxygen mask first if you're on a plane, and your kid 2nd. Seems opposite, but you need to be conscious and alive to protect your kid.

Comparing SWAT teams to oxygen masks...OT style!!!