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re: Post your top 15 players in NBA history in this thread
Posted on 6/9/15 at 1:49 pm to Baloo
Posted on 6/9/15 at 1:49 pm to Baloo
quote:I'm not saying you have to witness every game a player played first-hand.
Well, there's also the minor matter of him averaging 22.45 rebounds per game. That's literally double Hakeem's rebound rate.
Acting like the only way to evaluate players is through eye witness is ridiculous. There's this thing called the statistical record. Your own witness has value, but you're not a scout, and eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable anyway. You act like taking a large sample of other people's opinion is a bad thing, when in fact it is a really good tool for evaluation. Multiple expert evaluations are a GOOD thing.
And it's not like the film has been destroyed. You can watch clips of Russell playing.
All that said, I'd put Hakeem ahead of Russell, but that's because I think Hakeem might be the greatest center in NBA history not named Wilt Chamberlain. He was such a dynamic player.
But you need to see full games to really get a sense of how they contributed to their team. Clips on Youtube really don't do that.
Why did Russell have so many rebounds? Can we answer that? How do you know he didn't just stand under the rim and purposely miss shots to inflate his rebounding stats? I'm certainly not saying that happened... I'm making the point that stats tell the result, but not how those numbers were achieved.
People are comparing those they have seen play (LeBron, Jordan, Hakeem, etc) with those they have never seen play a full game with their own eyes. They are going off of stats and legend and other rankings they've been fed over the years from ESPN and whatever other publication. "They all put Russell at the top... so it must be true", and they confirm that he was a good player from a highlight clip they've seen on Youtube.
This post was edited on 6/9/15 at 1:54 pm
2
Posted on 6/9/15 at 2:19 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
People are comparing those they have seen play (LeBron, Jordan, Hakeem, etc) with those they have never seen play a full game with their own eyes
That's probably true for every player on the list not named Kobe or Lebron for many of the posters.
If you are worried about this then remove it from discussion by qualifying your ranking to only include players since the 80s or 90s (whatever your window is for when you started watching).
I'd point out that the average fan still gets a very stilted view of even the current players. Impressions RE: the excellence of Lebron for example have shifted wildly based on one or two games. If you want a professional opinion formed only by people who watched hundreds of games by each of the players then you need a media poll of someone who has been covering a lot of the NBA for five decades or more.
That's not what the MSB of TD is all about. You know that.
Posted on 6/9/15 at 2:33 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
Why did Russell have so many rebounds? Can we answer that? How do you know he didn't just stand under the rim and purposely miss shots to inflate his rebounding stats? I'm certainly not saying that happened... I'm making the point that stats tell the result, but not how those numbers were achieved.
Because he studied rebounding the way most players study how to score. We know this through first person accounts and his own teammates. We know he didn't intentionally miss shots to inflate his rebound numbers because that would have made the news reports of the games, and those reports don't exist (the player accused of goosing his stats his Chamberlain -- true or not, it is at least a contemporary accusation).
I don't like per 36 stats as much as you do, as it rewards players who cannot play as much, and the ability to log lots of minutes is most definitely a skill, and a valuable one at that. I prefer per game stats as my rate stats. And in Russell's WORST year, he averaged 18.6 RPG.
There are only 24 seasons in the history of the NBA in which a player averaged over 20 RPG. Take away Wilt and Russell, it has happened 4 times by a total of 3 players. The BEST season in RPG by a player not named Russell or Wilt (Thurmond 21.26) ranks only as the 19th best season. Wilt and Bill dominate the all-time rebounding list in a way that no one dominates any other important stat. Let's put it like this: Dennis Rodman is considered the modern master of the rebound, and he averaged just shy of NINE rebounds per game less than Russell. Russell was a better rebounder than Rodman and Chris Bosh COMBINED.
Also, Russell is likely BETTER than his stat sheet, because the NBA did not track blocks and steals when he played, robbing him of a record of his defensive prowess. And it's not like he couldn't score. He averaged 15.08 PPG. Not elite, but certainly nothing shameful (which is why Wilt is better: he could rebound AND score).
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