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Arizona and Arizona State football
Posted on 4/9/15 at 10:43 am
Posted on 4/9/15 at 10:43 am
ESPN recently had an article that Bobby Hurley is considering taking the basketball job at ASU. Other than a win or two, it just seems like the program is maxed. Obviously, the Arizona Wildcats are the premier basketball team in the state. That said, it got me thinking about the two schools and their football teams.
Arizona State has had some success (much more so than Arizona), but it still pales in comparison to USC, Washington, UCLA and now Oregon and probably Stanford.
What's holding these two programs back from really turning to that next level. They both are so incredibly inconsistent. It seems like a 8-4 season at ASU is good and 10-3 is the ceiling. For Arizona, a 7-5 season is good and 9-4 or 10-3 is superb. Arizona is a highly populated state...roughly around 7 million. Arizona borders California, the most populated state. Neither have daunting academic hurdles for their athletes and students. They both play in an elite conference. Is it facilities? Fanbase? Apathy? Recruiting/high school football? What's holding these two (potential gold mines) back?
Arizona State has had some success (much more so than Arizona), but it still pales in comparison to USC, Washington, UCLA and now Oregon and probably Stanford.
What's holding these two programs back from really turning to that next level. They both are so incredibly inconsistent. It seems like a 8-4 season at ASU is good and 10-3 is the ceiling. For Arizona, a 7-5 season is good and 9-4 or 10-3 is superb. Arizona is a highly populated state...roughly around 7 million. Arizona borders California, the most populated state. Neither have daunting academic hurdles for their athletes and students. They both play in an elite conference. Is it facilities? Fanbase? Apathy? Recruiting/high school football? What's holding these two (potential gold mines) back?
This post was edited on 4/9/15 at 10:45 am
Posted on 4/9/15 at 10:49 am to Forkbeard3777
Their top talent gets raided
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:04 am to WestCoastAg
Facilities are not that up to date compared to Oregon and Washington for sure.
They have made shitty coaching decisions too. Arizona stood with Stoops and gave him half a decade to "build" and RichRod came in and did better than him in 2 years. Arizona is recovering from a decade of a coach who should have been a coordinator (Koetter) and a washed-up coach 15 years past his prime (Erickson). Graham has them moving in the right direction but how long will he stay?
They have made shitty coaching decisions too. Arizona stood with Stoops and gave him half a decade to "build" and RichRod came in and did better than him in 2 years. Arizona is recovering from a decade of a coach who should have been a coordinator (Koetter) and a washed-up coach 15 years past his prime (Erickson). Graham has them moving in the right direction but how long will he stay?
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:06 am to Forkbeard3777
I don't know what it is, but the fans don't seem to give a shite. I lived right off campus for a couple years back around 2012. Live in St. Pete now and the Rays get more hype around town than ASU got on campus, it seemed. Also don't know why they don't have top 15 recruiting classes every year. Tempe 12 ain't doin their job
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:10 am to Forkbeard3777
Both of these guys will trend their programs upward, but as mentioned, both have the loyalty of a Hilton sister. Rod & Co. have a good, young qb and I wouldn't be shocked to see the Cats win the Pac12 within a few years.
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:14 am to ReauxlTide222
quote:
but the fans don't seem to give a shite.
They may come from families who are transplants.
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:16 am to Forkbeard3777
quote:
What's holding these two programs back from really turning to that next level. They both are so incredibly inconsistent. It seems like a 8-4 season at ASU is good and 10-3 is the ceiling. For Arizona, a 7-5 season is good and 9-4 or 10-3 is superb. Arizona is a highly populated state...roughly around 7 million. Arizona borders California, the most populated state. Neither have daunting academic hurdles for their athletes and students. They both play in an elite conference. Is it facilities? Fanbase? Apathy? Recruiting/high school football? What's holding these two (potential gold mines) back?
For one thing, it's a state with a population filled with transplants. There is no loyalty to staying in-state for college. Any worthwhile recruits always seem to venture elsewhere.
Take a look at the past few recruiting classes for the entire state. This is a breakdown of how many of the top 15 players in Arizona, as rated by Rivals, signed with an out-of-state institution:
2015 10/15
2014 8/15
2013 9/15
2012 10/15
There is little vested interest in staying loyal to the state because I am willing to bet that most athletes weren't born and raised in Arizona. Louisiana has one of the highest proportions of natives to transplants populations of any state in the Union. That is one of the main reasons why the majority of top flight talent typically signs with LSU, as long as LSU is successful.
Homegrown Population Statistics
Only two states have a lower homegrown population percentage: Nevada and Florida. Florida's is due in large part to the influx of Cuban immigrants and the departure of Snow Birds from the Northeast and New England.
On the other hand, 78.8% of Louisiana's population has been born and raised in Louisiana. That's more than twice the percentage of Arizona's native population.
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:20 am to Forkbeard3777
quote:
Arizona is a highly populated state...roughly around 7 million.
New York, Illinois, North Carolina, New Jersey, Virginia, Washington, and Massachusetts all have greater populations than Arizona, and none of these states have what I consider to be dominant football programs.
You can argue that the University of Washington has achieved that next level of success, but they haven't done so for quite some time.
And Virginia Tech has also been a highly successful program, but that is due in large part to the achievements of a future hall of fame coach.
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:26 am to Forkbeard3777
quote:
Arizona borders California, the most populated state.
Arizona and Arizona State also have to compete against about 20 other major colleges vying for those same recruits.
Within a 1,000 miles of Los Angeles you have the following Division 1 football programs:
Washington
Washington State
Oregon
Oregon State
Cal
Stanford
Fresno State
USC
UCLA
San Diego State
UNLV
Nevada
Boise State
Utah
Both schools have to get in line with everyone else.
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:28 am to saint amant steve
You can argue that the "transplant" thing hurts them. But what doesn't hurt them is telling a kid from Ohio or Pennsylvania that you can go to a top ten party school with lots of babes and warm weather year round if Ohio State doesn't want you. With very little effort and momentum, the school just sells itself. That's why it's always amazed me that nobody can win at UNLV anymore either.
And Arizona could just tell some meathead teenager "Gronk Went There" and they would at least listen.
And Arizona could just tell some meathead teenager "Gronk Went There" and they would at least listen.
This post was edited on 4/9/15 at 11:32 am
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:31 am to Forkbeard3777
This may come off as slightly racist, but it shouldn't if you have any sort of common sense, but the lack of elite success also might have to do with population demographics.
Blacks make up only 5% of Arizona's total population. By comparison, look how the majority of the states in the South stack up:
Alabama 26.8%
Arkansas 16.1%
Florida 17%
Georgia 31.5%
Louisiana 32.8%
Mississippi 37.6%
Missouri 12.5%
North Carolina 22.6%
South Carolina 28.8%
Tennessee 17.4%
Texas 12.6%
Just saying...
Blacks make up only 5% of Arizona's total population. By comparison, look how the majority of the states in the South stack up:
Alabama 26.8%
Arkansas 16.1%
Florida 17%
Georgia 31.5%
Louisiana 32.8%
Mississippi 37.6%
Missouri 12.5%
North Carolina 22.6%
South Carolina 28.8%
Tennessee 17.4%
Texas 12.6%
Just saying...
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:33 am to saint amant steve
quote:
This may come off as slightly racist, but it shouldn't if you have any sort of common sense, but the lack of elite success also might have to do with population demographics.
Actually, you may be on to something in a roundabout way. Minorities have not been friendly with Arizona for a couple of decades. First over the threats not to recognize the MLK holiday, and now disputes over border patrolling.
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:33 am to lsutigers1992
quote:
With very little effort and momentum, the school just sells itself.
The problem is there are better schools in better states that you can party balls at. It's not like football players have the average college experience anyway so the party school thing probably doesn't hold too much sway.
quote:
That's why it's always amazed me that nobody can win at UNLV anymore either.
UNLV has been in a rut b/c Nevada has dominated the state for years now.
This post was edited on 4/9/15 at 11:36 am
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:34 am to lsutigers1992
quote:
You can argue that the "transplant" thing hurts them. But what doesn't hurt them is telling a kid from Ohio or Pennsylvania that you can go to a top ten party school with lots of babes and warm weather year round if Ohio State doesn't want you. With very little effort and momentum, the school just sells itself. That's why it's always amazed me that nobody can win at UNLV anymore either.
Party school or not, Tempe is still located in the desert. Not everyone is fond of that particular biome.
Also, can you name one elite coach that has been at either institution?
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:35 am to saint amant steve
quote:
Washington
Washington State
Oregon
Oregon State
Cal
These schools are more likely to recruit in No. Cal than So. Cal.
This post was edited on 4/9/15 at 11:35 am
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:35 am to saint amant steve
quote:
Within a 1,000 miles of Los Angeles you have the following Division 1 football programs:
The same can be said with New Orleans. Within 1,000 miles of New Orleans you have the following Division 1 programs:
LSU
Alabama
Georgia
Florida
Florida State
Auburn
Tennessee
Arkansas
South Carolina
Oklahoma
Texas
Texas A&M
Clemson
Vanderbilt
Ole Miss
Mississippi State
Missouri
Kentucky
Ohio State
TCU
SMU
Notre Dame
Etc.......
You would just think that these two "warm and sunny" and "fun/party" schools could attract recruits more so than a lot. I get the transplant theory though. That's a good one.
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:37 am to saint amant steve
quote:
Tempe is still located in the desert.
Tempe is a suburb of Phoenix, so while it's in the desert, it's not like it's in the middle of nowhere.
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:41 am to saint amant steve
quote:
This may come off as slightly racist, but it shouldn't if you have any sort of common sense, but the lack of elite success also might have to do with population demographics.
Blacks make up only 5% of Arizona's total population. By comparison, look how the majority of the states in the South stack up:
That's a good theory. I wasn't aware of Arizona's demographics. Also, I doubt they are reaching into New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, or Nevada for recruits. However, given the location of Tempe and Tuscon to Los Angeles and San Diego (under an 8 hour drive), I just assume that it wouldn't be hard to sway recruits to these schools. Not every recruit can go to USC, UCLA, etc,
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:46 am to Forkbeard3777
ASU is more concerned with partying and anal sex
Posted on 4/9/15 at 11:50 am to Jack Bauer7
quote:
ASU is more concerned with partying and anal sex
If that is truly the case, Sun Devils, you are excused.
Arizona, what's your excuse?
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