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re: Dennis Prager on why poverty does NOT cause crime

Posted on 11/18/14 at 3:31 pm to
Posted by rintintin
Life is Life
Member since Nov 2008
16461 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 3:31 pm to
quote:


As I've said on here before, it has to go like this if it's going to work: 

American society must admit to and actually acknowledge its history of race terrorism. Honestly. That means when someone says "Jim Crow", you don't get a kneejerk "yeah, but Irish need not apply" in response. It means simply admitting the plain facts that blacks were terrorized, brutalized, ghettoized and impeded socially and economically for many many decades. 

Next, American society must admit that the literal centuries of this sort of treatment brings with it - BY DEFINITION - lasting social impact which manifests itself decades later. This means acknowledging such things as the multi-generational wealth gap which was intentionally created and from which modern blacks now suffer from. 


Good God man, I don't even know how to respond to this. Firstly, who is "American society"? What do you define that as? Do you want to hear it from the POTUS? See it in textbooks? See it on billboards? Have planes with banners flying around proclaiming it?

At what point would you be satisfied?
Posted by ApexTiger
cary nc
Member since Oct 2003
54190 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 3:33 pm to
quote:

Which leads me to wonder about people who believe that “poverty causes crime.”


What causes crime from low income areas?

Lack of fatherhood.

Young people are influenced by their surroundings
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
34708 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 3:36 pm to
quote:

Good God man, I don't even know how to respond to this. Firstly, who is "American society"? What do you define that as? Do you want to hear it from the POTUS? See it in textbooks? See it on billboards? Have planes with banners flying around proclaiming it? At what point would you be satisfied?


I'd be satisfied if Congress passed a resolution or whatever stating as such.

And of course it should be in textbooks.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
91238 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 4:02 pm to
quote:

However, I shut down when I see people actively waiting for the state to kill rioters.


Well - I didn't think that's what this thread was about - I'm concedeing that poverty is a risk factor for criminal activity - obviously it is not a causal relationship - there are poor non-criminals and rich criminals.

The recipe for avoiding poverty is very simple:

1. Stay in school
2. Don't have children out of wedlock
3. Refrain from engaging in criminal activity
4. Work at some kind of job

The population that does this has a 95 to 98% chance of avoiding poverty, whether it be a black kid living off Normandie in South Central L.A. or a white kid from a trailer park in Morgantown, WV, and everyone in between, North, South, East or West.

Being in poverty, generation after generation - yes there are legitimate grievances for past injustices for some populations, not the least of which include black folks - but enemy #1 is the man(woman) in the mirror.

Not liking that doesn't make it false.
This post was edited on 11/18/14 at 4:04 pm
Posted by Iosh
Bureau of Interstellar Immigration
Member since Dec 2012
18941 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 4:07 pm to
quote:

You completely missed his point. Completely, 100% missed it. Go back and re-read it.
I assure you I did not miss his point. "My parents came from nothing." "Look at all the cheap electronics the poor have." "The real fix for inequality is social conservatism." Etc.

I really don't get the appeal of Prager. The next thing I read, hear, or watch of his that contains an ounce of creativity and not a collection of microwaved bromides that everyone, on both sides of any debate, has heard roughly ten trillion times will be the first. I don't agree with Rush, or like Rush, but I get Rush. I get the appeal. Prager is the political equivalent of Quaker Oats.
This post was edited on 11/18/14 at 4:09 pm
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
100765 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 4:58 pm to
quote:

Prager is the political equivalent of Quaker Oats.


He fills a niche like Applebees fills a niche. Some people like bland.
This post was edited on 11/18/14 at 5:00 pm
Posted by NC_Tigah
Member since Sep 2003
126479 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 5:06 pm to
quote:

I assure you I did not miss his point. "My parents came from nothing." "Look at all the cheap electronics the poor have." "The real fix for inequality is social conservatism." Etc.

I really don't get the appeal of Prager. The next thing I read, hear, or watch of his that contains an ounce of creativity and not a collection of microwaved bromides that everyone, on both sides of any debate, has heard roughly ten trillion times will be the first.
quote:

The next thing I read, hear, or watch of his that contains an ounce of creativity and not a collection of microwaved bromides
Care to distill your own posts past that?

Microwaved bromides?

Microwaved bromides might be the stuff of decent poetry, but not of solid argument here.
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
34708 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 5:33 pm to
quote:

The recipe for avoiding poverty is very simple: 1. Stay in school 2. Don't have children out of wedlock 3. Refrain from engaging in criminal activity 4. Work at some kind of job


Right. But again, you are starting from a different place than a lot of these kids are. If no member of your family ever owned a home or attended college or had a bank account or even showed you how to have a bank account and if you lived in perpetual fear of the "system"...you don't just carry out these simple instructions.

I know it's hard to conceive of (it's really hard for me, as I used to be the type to give the same speech you are giving now.)
Posted by rintintin
Life is Life
Member since Nov 2008
16461 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 5:42 pm to
quote:

I'd be satisfied if Congress passed a resolution or whatever stating as such. 


Not sure what that would accomplish, but fine, let's say they did that. What next?

quote:

And of course it should be in textbooks.


What exactly would you like these textbooks to say on top of teaching about slavery, Civil rights, etc, which they already do?

I assure you there are classes that teach about the struggles the black community has had to endure.
Posted by tiderider
Member since Nov 2012
7703 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 5:55 pm to
quote:

quote:
The recipe for avoiding poverty is very simple: 1. Stay in school 2. Don't have children out of wedlock 3. Refrain from engaging in criminal activity 4. Work at some kind of job


Right. But again, you are starting from a different place than a lot of these kids are. If no member of your family ever owned a home or attended college or had a bank account or even showed you how to have a bank account and if you lived in perpetual fear of the "system"...you don't just carry out these simple instructions.

I know it's hard to conceive of (it's really hard for me, as I used to be the type to give the same speech you are giving now.)

i've taught about 100 kids from africa ... they actually know what 'poor' means ... getting all of your food the first day of the month ... one shirt ... no modern comforts of western civilization - tv, ac, cell phones, etc ... they didn't own a home, have a bank account, or parents who attended college ... many of them, probably a majority, went on to attend college ... none of them ... and i mean literally, none of them, were ever a discipline problem in class ... i'm sure you have an explanation which excuses black americans, however ...
Posted by NC_Tigah
Member since Sep 2003
126479 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 5:56 pm to
quote:

i've taught about 100 kids from africa ... they actually know what 'poor' means ... getting all of your food the first day of the month ... one shirt ... no modern comforts of western civilization - tv, ac, cell phones, etc ... they didn't own a home, have a bank account, or parents who attended college ... many of them, probably a majority, went on to attend college ... none of them ... and i mean literally, none of them, were ever a discipline problem in class ...
Posted by Ole War Skule
North Shore
Member since Sep 2003
3409 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 6:00 pm to
quote:

The part that is blaringly omitted is that Prager's family was white.


always excuses, always excuses

black, poor, no opportunities...blah, blah, blah

people commit crime because they are bad, lazy, scum. I don't care if they're white, black, asian, or whatever. Plenty of white collar crime, so that blows the poverty/opportunity excuse out the window.

what it's really about is jealousy and greed of some people who want 'stuff', but aren't willing to do the things necessary to get it. yes, I had it easier than some poor black kid, but PLENTY of poor black and white kids did what was necessary to climb out of poverty without crime.

I can't believe people are still spouting this dribble
Posted by germandawg
Member since Sep 2012
14135 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 6:08 pm to
So home life has nothing to do with poverty....people choose to be poor when they are 4 or 5 years old and their parents are too fricked up to see to it that they get to school. So I guess it doesn't matter that daddy ain't at home because on their 18 th birthday their upbringing is no longer an issue.

So do y'all not grant your family for teaching you how to be a productive member of society? If it ain't the families blame that a person grows up poor then it ain't their fault if she doesn't....
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
34708 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 7:04 pm to
quote:

What exactly would you like these textbooks to say on top of teaching about slavery, Civil rights, etc, which they already do


I'd like there to be a very close examination of the facts and outcomes of Jim Crow. I'd like redlining to be taught. Exclusion from Social Security. Massive and myriad white riots over honest black folk moving in to certain areas. Exclusion from the suburban dream. Exclusion from higher education. etc. etc. etc.
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
34708 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 7:07 pm to
quote:

always excuses, always excuses


Excuse? It's just a fact. Prager's family was white and thus, despite being poor, really had no idea what blacks were facing during the same time period. Prager (and almost everyone) seems intent on dropping that context when regaling us with his Horatio Alger stories.

quote:

can't believe people are still spouting this dribble


I can't believe people are still saying "dribble" instead of "drivel".
Posted by Ole War Skule
North Shore
Member since Sep 2003
3409 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 7:13 pm to
quote:

I can't believe people are still saying "dribble" instead of "drivel".



is that the best you got?
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
34708 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 7:17 pm to
quote:

is that the best you got?


Um, it was merely a tagline addressing your throwaway tagline from your post. I directly addressed the substance of what Prager said above that.
Posted by Ole War Skule
North Shore
Member since Sep 2003
3409 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 7:36 pm to
quote:

Excuse? It's just a fact. Prager's family was white and thus, despite being poor, really had no idea what blacks were facing during the same time period. Prager (and almost everyone) seems intent on dropping that context when regaling us with his Horatio Alger stories.



but it is your excuse none the less, isn't it.

spend as much time advising young black kids to stay in school, stop make babies, and not become criminals as you do making excuses for them and you could do a world of good...all you're doing here is justifying bigots' views and criminals' behavior.
Posted by PrimeTime Money
Houston, Texas, USA
Member since Nov 2012
27519 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 7:39 pm to
quote:

i've taught about 100 kids from africa ... they actually know what 'poor' means ... getting all of your food the first day of the month ... one shirt ... no modern comforts of western civilization - tv, ac, cell phones, etc ... they didn't own a home, have a bank account, or parents who attended college ... many of them, probably a majority, went on to attend college ... none of them ... and i mean literally, none of them, were ever a discipline problem in class ... i'm sure you have an explanation which excuses black americans, however ...
What you don't understand is that something, during some point in time caused a culture shift and changed the attitudes of many black Americans.

They became stuck in a perpetual cycle that they cannot break from because they do what their parent(s) do who did what their parent(s) do, etc. It's a cycle of bad culture, poverty, and crime.

They didn't just decide one day to live like that. Something caused the world-view that led to them living like that.

Poor Africans in Africa had completely different experiences from poor blacks in Africa. And poverty is all relative.
Posted by rintintin
Life is Life
Member since Nov 2008
16461 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 8:24 pm to
quote:

I'd like there to be a very close examination of the facts and outcomes of Jim Crow. I'd like redlining to be taught. Exclusion from Social Security. Massive and myriad white riots over honest black folk moving in to certain areas. Exclusion from the suburban dream. Exclusion from higher education. etc. etc. etc.



Alot of that information is readily available.

It just seems that you are so spiteful, or guilt filled, or I don't know what, that you don't care for the actual solutions to these problems, you just want it to be screamed from the rooftops to remind everybody. You are more concerned with marketing the plight, than fixing the product.
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