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re: If an employer pays full mileage rate, does leasing make sense?
Posted on 8/3/14 at 5:30 pm to sneakytiger
Posted on 8/3/14 at 5:30 pm to sneakytiger
So, the question is not anything that's yet been addressed. Not bashing, but the point is... in consideration of all factors, which, economically and tax wise, makes the most sense under these conditions? She's not worried about paying for the car. She's well compensated. She does the things listed above, the nails, the hair, the clothes, yaddy-yadda. Car goes with it.
So, in example A, if leasing the car, the cost for the cars she's considering seem to be somewhere around $57k-$62k. Leases are around $599, plus the $.25 a mile above the 10,000 mile threshold, so around $800 a month in total. Over 36 months that's $28,800. Over the same time frame she gets back around $33,300,which might cover the up-front costs she has (taxes, title, registration, etc..). Add in another $600 for disposition fee. In this example, total costs vs. reimbursement are almost a wash. No maintenance, insurance or fuel costs are included in this example.
In example B, on a purchase, same time frame, with $20k down, the payments at 36 months would be around $820 a month (48 months). So, not counting tax, title, registration, etc.., she's out $49,520.00 at three years (same term as lease)with another $9840 to go to pay off the car. After getting $33,000 from the company on mileage, she's out $16,520 over the same time, plus she's out (conservatively) $15,000 in expected investment earnings from the $20k she plans to put down. That's -($31,500) (conservative estimate) in the hole with another year to go on the loan, plus another year of lost investment earnings.
In Example A, after 3 years, not including the tax benefits from writing off the lease and expenses, a total of basically zero has been spent out-of-pocket. She is left with zero in value on the car, and has reasonable expectations of earning an extra $15k-$20k in investment income in the same time period from the $20k she doesn't put down. Conclusion: $15k to the good.
In example B, after 3 years of buying, not including tax benefits from investment tax benefits and depreciation, what she has left is a negative value of -($31,500) and a balance owed of -($9840) for a total negative balance (at 36 months) of -($41,300). This is offset by the value of the vehicle, which at that time should have a value of 55% of original purchase price, so around $31,500.00. I'm considering the high mileage hit (it'll be around 80,000 miles).
If I take my negative balance of -($41,300) and subtract the vehicle's value of $31,500 I'm left with a value of -($9,800).
This creates a delta between the two scenarios of almost $25k.
These are numbers that are easy to determine. What I want to know is, from a tax, investment or depreciation schedule, how does Example B somehow end up beating Example A? Every poster (including me) espouses buying (I have a 14 year old Lexus. They are great when paid off). In the long run, however, that $20k down payment is gone forever from investment growth, so it represents a huge hit over time. I've never believed in a lease before, but these numbers are making me think there may be a reason it might make sense.... if you are managing your investments.
Tell me what I'm not considering in these equations or why this is not a fair comparison? Where is this wrong?
So, in example A, if leasing the car, the cost for the cars she's considering seem to be somewhere around $57k-$62k. Leases are around $599, plus the $.25 a mile above the 10,000 mile threshold, so around $800 a month in total. Over 36 months that's $28,800. Over the same time frame she gets back around $33,300,which might cover the up-front costs she has (taxes, title, registration, etc..). Add in another $600 for disposition fee. In this example, total costs vs. reimbursement are almost a wash. No maintenance, insurance or fuel costs are included in this example.
In example B, on a purchase, same time frame, with $20k down, the payments at 36 months would be around $820 a month (48 months). So, not counting tax, title, registration, etc.., she's out $49,520.00 at three years (same term as lease)with another $9840 to go to pay off the car. After getting $33,000 from the company on mileage, she's out $16,520 over the same time, plus she's out (conservatively) $15,000 in expected investment earnings from the $20k she plans to put down. That's -($31,500) (conservative estimate) in the hole with another year to go on the loan, plus another year of lost investment earnings.
In Example A, after 3 years, not including the tax benefits from writing off the lease and expenses, a total of basically zero has been spent out-of-pocket. She is left with zero in value on the car, and has reasonable expectations of earning an extra $15k-$20k in investment income in the same time period from the $20k she doesn't put down. Conclusion: $15k to the good.
In example B, after 3 years of buying, not including tax benefits from investment tax benefits and depreciation, what she has left is a negative value of -($31,500) and a balance owed of -($9840) for a total negative balance (at 36 months) of -($41,300). This is offset by the value of the vehicle, which at that time should have a value of 55% of original purchase price, so around $31,500.00. I'm considering the high mileage hit (it'll be around 80,000 miles).
If I take my negative balance of -($41,300) and subtract the vehicle's value of $31,500 I'm left with a value of -($9,800).
This creates a delta between the two scenarios of almost $25k.
These are numbers that are easy to determine. What I want to know is, from a tax, investment or depreciation schedule, how does Example B somehow end up beating Example A? Every poster (including me) espouses buying (I have a 14 year old Lexus. They are great when paid off). In the long run, however, that $20k down payment is gone forever from investment growth, so it represents a huge hit over time. I've never believed in a lease before, but these numbers are making me think there may be a reason it might make sense.... if you are managing your investments.
Tell me what I'm not considering in these equations or why this is not a fair comparison? Where is this wrong?
Posted on 8/3/14 at 5:38 pm to HubbaBubba
The "wrong" is the initial price of the car. Buy a loaded Lexus ES new for 40k or so. Nice enough to take clients out, and when she wants to upgrade in 4-5 years, you take over the Lexus and she gets something new.
You are trying to think of ways to try to break even. Try to think about ways to get ahead.
You are trying to think of ways to try to break even. Try to think about ways to get ahead.
Posted on 8/3/14 at 6:16 pm to HubbaBubba
I don't understand where the $20k down payment is coming from. Is it just a personal choice or does MB require that much down? Also don't understand how you estimate 75%-100% return as "reasonable" over a 4 year period. That seems aggressive. And since when do you get to write-off a car lease on a personal vehicle?
I see it like this - option A is cash flow friendly, with employer reimbursements covering the lease. At the end of the 3 year term though you're stuck with no car.
With option B, assuming little to no down payment, You and your wife pay $17k for a car with a ~$30k value after 3-4 years, and its yours to keep. Or if you chose to sell it or trade it in you effectively realize those gains, $13k, tax free.
I see it like this - option A is cash flow friendly, with employer reimbursements covering the lease. At the end of the 3 year term though you're stuck with no car.
With option B, assuming little to no down payment, You and your wife pay $17k for a car with a ~$30k value after 3-4 years, and its yours to keep. Or if you chose to sell it or trade it in you effectively realize those gains, $13k, tax free.
Posted on 8/3/14 at 6:19 pm to HubbaBubba
How long do you plan to keep the car? Only 3-4 years, or do you expect to get it paid off and keep it forever?
I've run numbers multiple times on lease vs. purchase, and the numbers are always very close (within 1-2%), with advantage depending only on interest rate. However, all of these assessments assume the car will be unloaded at the lease end equivalent (whether buying or leasing). If you keep it long term, the depreciation shifts strongly in favor of purchasing. Also, keep in mind they do have higher mileage leases (15k/yr) which will give you a better idea/locked in residual rather than paying the mileage overage fee. Also, if the vehicle is kept in good shape, it may be worth more at term end than the residual, in which case you can trade it and potentially get the equity out of it.
For tax advantages, I'm not familiar since I don't write off my vehicles. However, I believe the lease has an advantage here since you are financing ONLY the depreciation allowing it to be fully written off. But, I honestly don't know.
As for vehicle, I'd recommend taking a look at the Infiniti M/Q70 or G/Q50. Cheaper and still very upscale in appearance.
I've run numbers multiple times on lease vs. purchase, and the numbers are always very close (within 1-2%), with advantage depending only on interest rate. However, all of these assessments assume the car will be unloaded at the lease end equivalent (whether buying or leasing). If you keep it long term, the depreciation shifts strongly in favor of purchasing. Also, keep in mind they do have higher mileage leases (15k/yr) which will give you a better idea/locked in residual rather than paying the mileage overage fee. Also, if the vehicle is kept in good shape, it may be worth more at term end than the residual, in which case you can trade it and potentially get the equity out of it.
For tax advantages, I'm not familiar since I don't write off my vehicles. However, I believe the lease has an advantage here since you are financing ONLY the depreciation allowing it to be fully written off. But, I honestly don't know.
As for vehicle, I'd recommend taking a look at the Infiniti M/Q70 or G/Q50. Cheaper and still very upscale in appearance.
Posted on 8/3/14 at 7:23 pm to HubbaBubba
quote:
in consideration of all factors, which, economically and tax wise, makes the most sense under these conditions? She's not worried about paying for the car. She's well compensated. She does the things listed above, the nails, the hair, the clothes, yaddy-yadda. Car goes with it.
In consideration of all factors, if this is a genuine business expense on the part of her employer, why aren't they leasing the car for her?
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