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re: Kornheiser: Nadal has removed Federer from the discussion of G.O.A.T
Posted on 6/12/13 at 9:02 am to austingator
Posted on 6/12/13 at 9:02 am to austingator
We are just going to have to agree to disagree on a few things.
Nole is just fine, everyone loses in scrub tourneys. He probably beats the GOAT clay player if he makes his overheads and he beat him at MC. Years like 2011 happen once in a decade.
I saw Milos in person in Toronto and at RG. He would be breaking through if he was that good. It's not like Mardy Fish or something where he can bloom late if he just gets in better shape and more experience. His movement and backhand are downright awful at times.
I don't think Pete is GOAT, but he was better all around than I think you're giving him credit for. No question, he piled up Wimbledons with serve, but he beat guys like Agassi, Courier, and Chang from the back of the court several times in big matches. You are correct that his serve game him the luxury of pounding away in return games, though.
Nole is just fine, everyone loses in scrub tourneys. He probably beats the GOAT clay player if he makes his overheads and he beat him at MC. Years like 2011 happen once in a decade.
I saw Milos in person in Toronto and at RG. He would be breaking through if he was that good. It's not like Mardy Fish or something where he can bloom late if he just gets in better shape and more experience. His movement and backhand are downright awful at times.
I don't think Pete is GOAT, but he was better all around than I think you're giving him credit for. No question, he piled up Wimbledons with serve, but he beat guys like Agassi, Courier, and Chang from the back of the court several times in big matches. You are correct that his serve game him the luxury of pounding away in return games, though.
This post was edited on 6/12/13 at 9:04 am
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Posted on 6/12/13 at 9:06 am to barry
quote:If you are going to use that argument, then how old was Sampras when Federer came along? And Sampras had competition through out his career.
Its a tough tough statement because Fed had NO competition till Nadal came along. Nadal probably hit his prime at the same time Fed was starting his decline,2008. Fed was still ~26/27.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 9:10 am to bobbyray21
You still owe me money bitch. Pay up.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 9:11 am to austingator
quote:
Pete- oh gawd. Pete was the serve and volley one trick pony. He plays ugly- as a tennis fanatic, that bugs me tremendously. That freaking forehand of his was UGLY. Effective, but not a thing of beauty. Pete won matches with his serves, and by putting pressure on his opponents because they knew they were not going to break him. He was long and served and volleyed a lot, but lacked the touch of Roger, Rafa, or Djokovic. He isn't a GOAT. In my book, Agassi was a lot more elegant player, he just didn't really love tennis his first decade playing, and just didn't give a chit. His book is simply great at explaining this
There is no doubt that Pete benefited greatly from his serve. His serve was an absolute piece of art, and it won him a lot of matches. But I think his athleticism also bears mentioning. Dude was fast as a cat, and had more hops than an Indian Pale Ale. And that's what separated him from a guy like, say, Goran Ivanisevic, who's serve was also an absolute thing of beauty, but who didn't have the same raw athleticism as Mr. Sampras.*
_______________________
*Though Goran did move pretty well for a big guy.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 9:13 am to Hook Em Horns
quote:
You still owe me money bitch. Pay up.
Gotta pull the trigger quicker next time, vaggy. Snooze you lose.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 9:14 am to Poodlebrain
quote:
If you are going to use that argument, then how old was Sampras when Federer came along? And Sampras had competition through out his career.
Not following.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 9:15 am to austingator
quote:
I agree. Chrissy was what Radwanska is now. They just can't compete with 6' tall players who move well. Sharapova isn't a great mover, but mentally she is the best out there. Serena has a killer instinct unlike anyone else I've ever seen
I think Serena is CLEARLY the female GOAT.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 9:19 am to bobbyray21
Serena vs Steffi or Martina in her prime would have been interesting.
I think Serena is better, her serve is just out of this world for a woman but Serena didn't care about tennis until she had foot surgery and a PE. She is a lot more serious and dedicated now and that doesn't bode well for Maria or Vika.
I think Serena is better, her serve is just out of this world for a woman but Serena didn't care about tennis until she had foot surgery and a PE. She is a lot more serious and dedicated now and that doesn't bode well for Maria or Vika.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 11:29 am to austingator
I think Federer might be the third best clay court player of all time behind Rafa and Borg. He made five finals, winning one and losing four to the best clay court player of all time. If Rafa wasn't in his way, he could have won four or five French Opens.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 11:33 am to RedHawk
I kind of agree, but if you have to rank them, I can't put him ahead of Lendl, Wilander, Kuerten, even Vilas and possibly Muster.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 11:36 am to Bunk Moreland
I skipped much of the thread, but Novak not getting any love? He's been on fire for a bit now (Clay excluded).
Posted on 6/12/13 at 11:43 am to TigerFanatic99
I think everyone here respects the hell out of his play. There is just a sense that he may have wasted a few opportunities to move up the historical pecking order before he did whatever he did to become superhuman in 2011, whether that was better training, maturing, identifying the gluten thing, or juicing.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 12:00 pm to Bunk Moreland
and on the original topic, I struggle to consider Nadal the GOAT because 8/12 of how majors all came on the same court.
GOAT clay guy? absolutely, but he needs to do more elsewhere before he joins the samparas's and federer's of the world.
GOAT clay guy? absolutely, but he needs to do more elsewhere before he joins the samparas's and federer's of the world.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 12:13 pm to TigerFanatic99
Sampras never won anything of substance on clay, so no way he can be GOAT. He never won Olympic gold either, that was Agassi.
Rafa has won the Olympics on hard courts, and the Davis cup multiple times. Roger has never won either of those things. He is a lot more than one trick pony. He is just had the bad luck of playing at the same time as Federer and Djokovic, which are much better suited for grass, and hard courts.
And I agree Federer is third on clay. Yes, better than Lendle, Vilas, and Kuerten. He has just the terrible luck to play at the same time as the GOAT of clay.
Rafa has won the Olympics on hard courts, and the Davis cup multiple times. Roger has never won either of those things. He is a lot more than one trick pony. He is just had the bad luck of playing at the same time as Federer and Djokovic, which are much better suited for grass, and hard courts.
And I agree Federer is third on clay. Yes, better than Lendle, Vilas, and Kuerten. He has just the terrible luck to play at the same time as the GOAT of clay.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 12:34 pm to austingator
So Federer is probably in the top five for clay, top two for grass, and top two for hardcourts.
Nadal is without a doubt #1 for clay, but where does he rank on hardcourts and grass? His entire chapter hasn't been written yet, but he hasn't surpassed Federer as top dog yet.
Nadal is without a doubt #1 for clay, but where does he rank on hardcourts and grass? His entire chapter hasn't been written yet, but he hasn't surpassed Federer as top dog yet.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 12:40 pm to RedHawk
quote:
His entire chapter hasn't been written yet, but he hasn't surpassed Federer as top dog yet.
I agree with this. And who knows when Rafa's body is finally going to give out.
One last argument for Rafa: Rafa has been a part of all top three matches of this generation. Wimbledon 2008 (won), Australian open 2012 (lost in the longest grand slam final ever), and Roland Garros 2013 (won). He has won two of them. And 2007 Wimbledon is probably number 4, and he lost that one to Federer on his prime, on his best surface.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 1:13 pm to austingator
quote:
One last argument for Rafa: Rafa has been a part of all top three matches of this generation. Wimbledon 2008 (won), Australian open 2012 (lost in the longest grand slam final ever), and Roland Garros 2013 (won). He has won two of them. And 2007 Wimbledon is probably number 4, and he lost that one to Federer on his prime, on his best surface.
Where does Wimbledon 2009 (where Federer broke Pete's record) rank in this?
Posted on 6/12/13 at 1:54 pm to RedHawk
quote:
I think Federer might be the third best clay court player of all time behind Rafa and Borg. He made five finals, winning one and losing four to the best clay court player of all time. If Rafa wasn't in his way, he could have won four or five French Opens.
Kuerten is better off the top of my head.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 1:54 pm to TigerFanatic99
quote:
I skipped much of the thread, but Novak not getting any love? He's been on fire for a bit now (Clay excluded).
I've given him tons of love.
No homo.
Posted on 6/12/13 at 1:56 pm to TigerFanatic99
quote:
and on the original topic, I struggle to consider Nadal the GOAT because 8/12 of how majors all came on the same court.
GOAT clay guy? absolutely, but he needs to do more elsewhere before he joins the samparas's and federer's of the world.
What, pray, is the proper ratio?
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